Kirsten, I think the problem is simply poorly formatted tables. VO is not designed to try and reconstruct a table. I am not sure exactly how all this works, but WIndow-Eyes for example can look at a website that has tables and even when poorly constructed, (generally missing header tags), those tables can be navigated as a table. There is some backend process for using the "table mode" to make this work. Unfortunately there are a lot of very poorly done tables or processes for building those tables. So, all that to say I do not blame the screen reading technology so much as blaming the app/person who developed the table. I wondered if Fine Reader was accessible on the Mac and if it really provides anything that Preview cannot. So, will be curious about your experience.
On Apr 11, 2012, at 7:57 PM, Kirsten Edmondson wrote: > From my investigations today, it seems that it does what most screen-readers > do with columns. It puts everything vertically underneath everything. Thus, > there are no columns. There are no differentiations between columns or cells, > but you seem to need to remember which heading you want and work out which > bit you want as a result. What I mean by this, is say, your table has 4 > columns. It will always start with the four headings (underneath each other > of course) and then you need to work through in your head, as you read and > associate each item to its given heading and thus column. Although this is > not the best way of doing it, it's better than reading half a line and half > another line on one line, which is often what I've found happen when pages > are split into undetectible columns. This causes issues because you have to > try to make sense of two different sets of words which are not likely to be > linked and remember them as you navigate line by line in order to read > coherently. > So, although this does not seem to be happening, and that is an improvement, > I'm sorry to say there has been no amazing advancement. Tables in HTML are > much more navigable as they have titles and a clear structure, and obvious > breaks between columns. But when you turn a PDF into a safari-opened > document, it doesn't have the HTML functionality and thus just reads the > table as text rather than a separately navigable part of the page. > I still have to invest in Fine Reader for Mac, but probably that will solve > problems, in the mean-time, long-winded as it is, you either need to use your > memory, or do what Rafael does and rescan a printed document. > I wonder what it is about Kerzweil and Fine Reader that make tables possible, > whilst VO and Jaws can't read PDF docs properly ... > Kirsten. > > On 11 Apr 2012, at 17:51, Bejarano, Rafael P. wrote: > >> The only solution I've found is to print out the document, and then to read >> it with my Kurzweil, since it is able to read by columns. >> >> Good luck with your efforts, and please keep the list apprised of any >> successes. I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like to be able to read >> multiple-column, pdf documents on my Mac. >> >> Cordially, >> Rafael >> On Apr 10, 2012, at 5:51 PM, Kirsten Edmondson wrote: >> >>> I haven't, but you raise a good point, I have never found it possible to >>> read PDF columns properly with Jaws and used to have to use fine reader to >>> translate into an MS Doc. The PDFs I am currently putting into Safari are >>> mainly journal articles-they have some tables and I don't think those read >>> properly, but I will try to remember to take a look at some PDFs in columns >>> and see. I think we're likely to have little success however, as it's about >>> translating graphical representation into words and a logical order to >>> people-many of whom don't have a great concept of layout and formatting. >>> >>> On 9 Apr 2012, at 16:21, Bejarano, Rafael P. wrote: >>> >>>> Those are very helpful suggestions. I wonder, though: Have you ever tried >>>> reading pdf documents formatted in multiple columns? I can do so using an >>>> old PowerPC iBook running Tiger, but I can't seem to do so with newer Macs >>>> and OSs. >>>> >>>> Cordially, >>>> Rafael Bejarano >>>> On Apr 8, 2012, at 4:47 PM, Kirsten Edmondson wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> A few weeks ago, someone asked what was the best way of reading PDFs. I >>>>> gave some vague response, and though I can't remember who asked, I know >>>>> it comes up quite often, so, below I list more specific steps. I hope >>>>> they help whoever wanted to know. >>>>> 1. Find your document in your folder system. >>>>> 2. Press VO-M and navigate to the File menu. >>>>> 3. Go down to the Open With menu. >>>>> 4. Arrow right and then down to Safari. >>>>> 5. Leave the document to open-this might take some time if it is large >>>>> for example-when it starts reading, arrow until you are in the window >>>>> (rather than in the other web functions such as add to reading list etc). >>>>> 6. Interact with the window with the VO-Down Arrow-Shift command. >>>>> 7. If you want to read line by line, try to get your reading setting to >>>>> 'navigation', otherwise when you use the down arrow, you will be reading >>>>> via character or word. >>>>> 8. Use the arrows to read up and down each line. >>>>> 9. Close or quit when you are finished. >>>>> N.B.: the default setting for PDFs is Preview, which I personally find >>>>> hard to access. >>>>> This has worked for me so far most often. >>>>> I think I said to use Google Chrome last time I emailed, but I think I >>>>> should really have said Safari, as Chrome seems not to open the document >>>>> in the same way-often saying 'empty HTML' which Safari does not. >>>>> Kind regards >>>>> Kirsten. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "MacVisionaries" group. >> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. 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