Same here! Cheers, RM On Sep 16, 2011, at 1:20 PM, Chris Blouch wrote: > Nice. I know they used to allow Snow server virtual machines. I think once > the point release of 4 comes out I'll upgrade. Always hesitant to go with any > version that is a dot zero. > > CB > > On 9/16/11 9:13 AM, Rachel magario wrote: >> Chris, >> >> Yes, fusion 4 allows for snow and snow server to run as a virtual machine as >> well as lion and lion server. >> HTH, >> Rachel >> On Sep 15, 2011, at 3:21 PM, Chris Blouch wrote: >> >>> Well, there were a bunch of hacky ways to do this using special modified >>> installs from Torrent sites. I'm not really interested in all that. Just >>> wanted to find out if Fusion 4 took the restriction off for making 10.6 >>> virtual machines. >>> >>> CB >>> >>> On 9/14/11 6:45 PM, Rachel magario wrote: >>>> chris, >>>> >>>> I have a friend who is running a 10.6 virtual machine on the pc side, if >>>> that is of anyhelp. He does not use screen readers though. HTH, >>>> Rachel. >>>> On Sep 14, 2011, at 2:39 PM, Chris Blouch wrote: >>>> >>>>> I wonder about the reverse. Could I upgrade to Lion and then use Fusion 4 >>>>> to make a virtual 10.6 system so I could test or run stuff that isn't >>>>> updated yet? Used to be VMWare stopped you from making a 10.6 virtual >>>>> machine. >>>>> >>>>> CB >>>>> >>>>> On 9/14/11 3:05 PM, Paul Erkens wrote: >>>>>> Hi Bill Holton, >>>>>> >>>>>> You're right. Running Lion inside a vm is a good solution if you don't >>>>>> want to upgrade from snow leopard yet. I'm running Lion to my full >>>>>> satisfaction and it's running natively. The sandbox is a breeze to work >>>>>> with once you get the hang of it. It took me the reading of a chapter in >>>>>> de super duper manual, and I was ready to go. I've never attempted to >>>>>> set up anything else than windows inside a virtual environment in fusion >>>>>> myself yet. Interested to hear how you succeed. >>>>>> >>>>>> Paul. >>>>>> On Sep 14, 2011, at 8:47 PM, Bill Holton wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm thinking a virtual Lion could make a nice sandbox for testing, and >>>>>>> if I >>>>>>> screw something up I can just delete the virtual machine and set up a >>>>>>> new >>>>>>> one. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com >>>>>>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Erkens >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 2:23 PM >>>>>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com >>>>>>> Subject: Re: Questionabout Super Doopper and external drives >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Bill Holton, >>>>>>> Both sandboxing and running Lion inside vm fusion requires some system >>>>>>> maintanance. Why would you want to run lion as a virtual machine by the >>>>>>> way? >>>>>>> Why not just natively? >>>>>>> Paul. >>>>>>> On Sep 14, 2011, at 8:07 PM, Bill Holton wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks for these great instructions. It looks like the new version of >>>>>>>> VM >>>>>>>> Fusion will allow me to run Lion as a virtual machine, which sounds >>>>>>>> like >>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> will be easier than sandboxing. But I do need to partition and format >>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>> coming USB HD so the instructions are no less appreciated. >>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com >>>>>>>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Erkens >>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 1:13 PM >>>>>>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Questionabout Super Doopper and external drives >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Bill Holton, >>>>>>>> You can repartition an external drive, and create both a fat32 windows >>>>>>>> partition and a mac os 10 extended journaled one with mac disk utility. >>>>>>> You >>>>>>>> can then use the fat32 partition to share data between windows and the >>>>>>> mac, >>>>>>>> and you can use the os10 partition to maintain a backup of everything >>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>> your mac. Let's begin by looking at how to resize your macintosh hd >>>>>>>> partition and have a sandbox beside it. >>>>>>>> It involves a few steps which I'll describe below. Not key by key >>>>>>>> though. >>>>>>>> I'll assume that you have some mac knowledge, but just don't know >>>>>>>> where to >>>>>>>> go yet, and in what order. Here you go. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> First open disk utility, to carefully inspect your current >>>>>>>> configuration >>>>>>> so >>>>>>>> that you know what you will be changing.. >>>>>>>> To do this, Go into the finder, say, your desktop, and press command >>>>>>>> shift >>>>>>> u >>>>>>>> from there. This will open your utilities folder. Here, find disk >>>>>>>> utility >>>>>>>> dot app, and open it. >>>>>>>> In the disk table on the left, interact, and look at your current disk >>>>>>>> configuration. You need to know a few things before you go do something >>>>>>>> here. A disk is just a disk, and you cannot use it directly. It needs >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> have a partition to hold the file system, inside of which you can store >>>>>>>> files. There are many file systems, one of them is fat32, and another >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>> mac >>>>>>>> os10 extended journaled. A filesystem lives inside a partition, so the >>>>>>>> partition is the container for the file system on the disk. From the >>>>>>>> disk >>>>>>>> perspective, you first have an empty disk. Then you create a partition >>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>> the disk, spanning all or only part of the disk size. As you are >>>>>>>> creating >>>>>>>> the new partition, you must choose which file system is going to live >>>>>>> inside >>>>>>>> it, because The partition must be formatted for use with the type of >>>>>>>> file >>>>>>>> system that you want to use. In other words, the way you format your >>>>>>>> partition, becomes a property of the partition. So, on your external >>>>>>>> usb >>>>>>>> drive, you can have a fat32 partition, and a mac os10 partition, and >>>>>>>> you >>>>>>> can >>>>>>>> have 2 separate mac os 10 extended journaled partitions on your >>>>>>>> internal >>>>>>> mac >>>>>>>> hard drive. In both cases, You then just allocate one bit to the first >>>>>>>> partition, and the rest of the disk space to the other. You do this by >>>>>>>> setting the size text fields inside disk utility. See below. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Once inside disk utility on the mac, you will see your hard disk as the >>>>>>>> brand of physical disk inside the machine, for example Hitachi 500gb. >>>>>>>> This >>>>>>>> item in the disk table is usually expanded, meaning there can be >>>>>>>> something >>>>>>>> inside it. And indeed, there is. It's your macintosh hd partition, >>>>>>> formatted >>>>>>>> as mac os10 extended journaled, with a size of your entire disk. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What you want to have, is not 1 big partition of 500 or 320 gb, what >>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>> you, but you would like to shrink the os10 partition and make it 20 gb >>>>>>>> smaller. You will use these 20 gigabytes for the sandbox partition. >>>>>>>> This >>>>>>> can >>>>>>>> be done, but it can't be done non-destructively. In other words: >>>>>>>> resizing >>>>>>>> your partitions with disk utility is indeed destructive, because it >>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>> destroy all data on the disk. In all partitions. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What you can do is back up everything, then recreate your macintosh hd >>>>>>>> partition 20 gb smaller, create a sandbocx partition beside it, and >>>>>>>> then >>>>>>>> restore your data. This is painless, as I experienced yesterday and >>>>>>>> today. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You can use super duper. If you have one, take an external usb hard >>>>>>>> disk >>>>>>>> with as much space as you have on your internal hard drive in your mac. >>>>>>> Your >>>>>>>> external disk can of course be larger, but you will need at most the >>>>>>>> size >>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> your mac drive, if you have it filled up. Super duper can create a >>>>>>>> backup >>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> your entire system, all apps, system files, preferences and all that. >>>>>>>> Even >>>>>>>> the unregistered version of super duper does it without restriction and >>>>>>> will >>>>>>>> make the usb backup disk bootable too. Once everything is backed up, >>>>>>>> you >>>>>>> can >>>>>>>> restart your mac and boot off of the external disk. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Note: If you have no other usb disks connected other than your external >>>>>>>> backup hard disk, and as long as you only have 1 partition on the mac >>>>>>> drive, >>>>>>>> you can boot from the usb disk by turning on your mac, and during the >>>>>>>> startup sound, hold down the option key for some 10 seconds or so. >>>>>>>> Release >>>>>>>> it, and you will be in a menu. The cursor is on macintosh hd, to boot >>>>>>> from. >>>>>>>> Arrow left once, hit enter, and you will instead boot from the usb >>>>>>>> drive. >>>>>>> It >>>>>>>> takes longer but it works. End of note. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> When booted from the external drive, you have your entire system as >>>>>>>> usual. >>>>>>>> Voice over as well. Because everything was backed up, both disk utility >>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> super duper are on this external drive too. So now, start disk utility >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> look at what you have in the disk table. You will see your mac hard >>>>>>>> drive >>>>>>>> and its macintosh hd partition, you will see your external usb disk >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>> you >>>>>>>> are now working from with its partitions, and you may see something >>>>>>>> called >>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> super drive. That is simply your mac's internal cd dvd drive. >>>>>>>> Now, You want to repartition your internal mac hard drive into 2 new >>>>>>>> partitions: macintosh hd 20 gb smaller, and the sandbox partition >>>>>>>> being 20 >>>>>>>> gb in size. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Put the cursor on the mac hard drive itself. Not on macintosh hd which >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> the partition inside it. If you now look at the rest of this disk >>>>>>>> utility >>>>>>>> screen, you will find a number of tabs. One of them is the partition >>>>>>>> tab. >>>>>>>> Push it with vo space. The screen changes to show partitioning options. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This screen is self-explanatory, except for one thing. There can be a >>>>>>> scroll >>>>>>>> area. First, you need to choose how many partitions you are going to >>>>>>>> have >>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> the new layout. You will find a pop button for this. After you select >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> have 2 partitions, a scroll area will appear. It consists of 3 items: >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> first partition, a separator and the second partition. Focus on your >>>>>>>> first >>>>>>>> partition inside the scrool area and stop interacting. Now, look left >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> right of the scroll area, and you will find places to give the >>>>>>>> partition >>>>>>> its >>>>>>>> size, name, and file system. Then go back to the scrool area again, >>>>>>>> focus >>>>>>> on >>>>>>>> the second partition which is your sandbox, and fill in the details >>>>>>>> again >>>>>>>> for this partition. Then hit apply, let disk utility do its thing, and >>>>>>> then >>>>>>>> exit disk utility. Now you have a macintosh hd partition 20 gb smaller, >>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> you have your 20 gb sand box partition. Both partitions are in place >>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>> they are empty. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Now, use super duper to restore from your external drive back to >>>>>>>> macintosh >>>>>>>> hd, so that your system is back normal again. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In super duper, choose your external drive in the source pop up button, >>>>>>>> choose macintosh hd as the destination in the second pop up button, use >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> backup all files item in the next pop up button, and let it do its >>>>>>>> thing. >>>>>>>> Now, you can boot as usual and nothing should be different. All data is >>>>>>> back >>>>>>>> on your drive, inside macintosh hd. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Now for the sand box. Having booted normally, start super duper. Tell >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> back up from macintosh hd, to the new 20 gb sandbox partition, using >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> choice named sandbox shared users as your backup method. Don't use >>>>>>>> smart >>>>>>>> update this time yet. You want to be sure that everything is backed up >>>>>>> from >>>>>>>> macintosh hd to the sandbox partition. When done, close super duper. >>>>>>>> Now >>>>>>>> you have your sandbox in place. Forget about it, until you want to >>>>>>>> test a >>>>>>>> new device driver or piece of software. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> When that time has come, you will first need to boot from the new >>>>>>>> sandbox >>>>>>>> partition. To do that, either do it using the option key at startup, >>>>>>>> or go >>>>>>>> into system preferences, the item startup disk, and set it to boot from >>>>>>>> sandbox. This will hold for all subsequent boot ups, until you change >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> back. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Once booted into your sandbox, install the software or drivers and try >>>>>>> them >>>>>>>> out. Reboot when you want or need to. Sandbox will automatically be the >>>>>>>> booted partition because you did that in system preferences. If you are >>>>>>>> satisfied with the new software, you will have to install it a second >>>>>>> time, >>>>>>>> but now on to your real macintosh hd partition. Go to system >>>>>>>> preferences, >>>>>>>> change the startup disk back to macintosh hd, reboot, and install your >>>>>>>> driver or software. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Note: from time to time, it is a good idea to update your sandbox to >>>>>>> reflect >>>>>>>> the state of your ever changing macintosh hd. To do this, use super >>>>>>>> duper. >>>>>>>> Backup from macintosh hd, to sandbox, backup all files, and use smart >>>>>>> update >>>>>>>> to bring down the backup time. To turn on smart update, find the >>>>>>>> options >>>>>>>> button on the super duper screen, hit it and select smart update from a >>>>>>> pop >>>>>>>> up button. Hit ok to close options and hit copy now. Your sand box is >>>>>>>> now >>>>>>> up >>>>>>>> to date again, ready for the next unknown bit of software you would >>>>>>>> like >>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> have a go at. >>>>>>>> Lastly, repartitioning your external drive should now be a snap. If you >>>>>>> have >>>>>>>> further questions let me know. >>>>>>>> Hth, >>>>>>>> Paul. >>>>>>>> On Sep 14, 2011, at 3:07 PM, Bill Holton wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks. The sandbox seems like it would also be a more convenient >>>>>>>>> way to >>>>>>>>> get into the Mac if your main system gets messed up. How hard is it >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> repartition your ddrive on the fly? >>>>>>>>> Also, any suggestions on what I should do with my coming USB drive so >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>> use it both to use SuperDuper and have space to swap it to my Windows >>>>>>>>> PC >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> back it up with a PC backup program? >>>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>>> Bill >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Erkens >>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 9:04 AM >>>>>>>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Questionabout Super Doopper and external drives >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi Bill, James and others, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Super duper is equal in its functionality as far as backing up and >>>>>>>> bootable >>>>>>>>> backups go. CCC is free. Super duper costs 30 dollars or so. Super >>>>>>>>> duper >>>>>>>> has >>>>>>>>> an extra bit of functionality though, that I really love, now that I >>>>>>>> messed >>>>>>>>> up my system installing the wrong drivers and so on in the past. Super >>>>>>>> duper >>>>>>>>> allows you to create a sand box. A sand box is an entire copy of your >>>>>>>>> mac >>>>>>>> os >>>>>>>>> 10 system installation residing on another partition of your hard >>>>>>>>> drive, >>>>>>>>> that you can use to play around with software updates, system drivers >>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>> install such as mac fuse and others, and you can mess with >>>>>>>>> applications, >>>>>>>>> before you go ahead and actually install them for real into your main >>>>>>>>> macintosh hd. If you want to test a new hardware device driver, and >>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>> not sure of the outcome, whether or not it is going to disturb you or >>>>>>>>> something in your system, you can install the new driver inside the >>>>>>>> sandbox. >>>>>>>>> if you find out that everything works just fine inside your second os, >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> sandbox, then you can safely install the new drivers into your real >>>>>>>> system. >>>>>>>>> What super duper does, is that it requires you to repartition your >>>>>>>>> drive >>>>>>>>> into 2 pieces. One for your normal system, and a 20 gb partition for >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> sandbox. >>>>>>>>> But then, Once that is done, you have the great advantage of testing >>>>>>>>> new >>>>>>>>> drivers and software inside your sandbox, before taking the plunge to >>>>>>>>> install them into the daily operating system. If, on the other hand, >>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>> find that the driver is not working for you, is too intrucive or what >>>>>>> ever >>>>>>>>> reason you may have to discard it, then all you need to do is copy >>>>>>>>> your >>>>>>>>> clean macintosh hd system files over to the sandbox, replacing the >>>>>>>>> mess >>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>> created there. Now, you also got rid of the faulty driver in the >>>>>>>>> sandbox. >>>>>>>>> No matter if you boot from your macintosh hd or from the sandbox >>>>>>>> partition, >>>>>>>>> you always have your documents etc at hand. This is because if you >>>>>>>>> boot >>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>> macintosh hd, then the documents are accessible as usual. But from the >>>>>>>>> sandbox, they are reference using symbolic links, so that, even though >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> sandbox is just a copy of the real os, you can access all your private >>>>>>>> stuff >>>>>>>>> from there too. That is wonderful in super duper. You should very >>>>>>>> carefully >>>>>>>>> read the manual though, before you begin sandboxing, so that you are >>>>>>> aware >>>>>>>>> of what's happening. For example, you should never copy the sandbox >>>>>>>>> back >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> macintosh hd. That makes you loose all your private stuff. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> CCC can backup and make the backup bootable, so if you don't need the >>>>>>> sand >>>>>>>>> box functionality, then ccc is perfect too. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sep 13, 2011, at 6:31 PM, Bill Holton wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi. >>>>>>>>>> I have a 2 tarabyte drive on its way, and I have a few questions >>>>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>> Mac >>>>>>>>>> backups. >>>>>>>>>> First, as I seem to recall, with Superdooper you can create a backup >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> format you can actually boot from, if the system becomes trashed? Is >>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>> correct? Is SuperDooper the only package that allows this,or does >>>>>>>>>> time >>>>>>>>>> Machine, also? >>>>>>>>>> Second question: How would I configure the drive so I can use it to >>>>>>> back >>>>>>>>> up >>>>>>>>>> my Mac, but also swap it out to my PC to back it up? Guessing I'll >>>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> create two partitions? If so, how do I create the correct two using >>>>>>>>> Tiger? >>>>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>>>> Bill >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups >>>>>>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>> Groups >>>>>>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>> Groups >>>>>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups >>>>>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups >>>>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups >>>>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >
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