Antonio, Perhaps I misunderstood you, but perhaps you are right. I am all for Braille; however, this app is for the iPHone, which will be much different than if it were for the Mac. You are right that one won't know until one tries. ANy progress is progress. Scott
On Feb 10, 2011, at 9:57 PM, Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr. wrote: > Hello, > > I do not think braille should be considered just yet when making a sudoku app. > > Are these apps to be run on a mac, or iPhone? > > Either way I see no need to read grids at all times, only when the player > makes a region query as I suggested. > > I bet some developer out there may be able to retrofit their existing app > with VoiceOver features you may furnish. Try it I say, or you'll never know > how far the developers are willing to go. > > Antonio Guimaraes > > > On Feb 10, 2011, at 7:35 PM, Scott Howell wrote: > >> Woe, this all sounds good Antonio; however, we're talking about modifying an >> existing game, not reinventing one. The various gestures would require a >> substantial amount of recoding even if it would be possible. What your >> talking about may even be beyond VO's abilities at this point. I really need >> to go study up on Sudoku because I have an interest, but not enough >> knowledge to completely understand all the aspects of the board. However, >> setting aside Braille for the minute, we need to consider what is possible >> without rewriting the entire interface. >> Not trying to pea on your parade, but perhaps looking at this from the >> perspective of what is instead of what we wish could be. DOes that make >> sense? >> I just think if we approach the developer with all of these ideas of >> changing the interface, he bay balk at the idea. Do you feel there is >> another approach? Do you think the coordinates are necessary? Just trying to >> think through this. >> >> Scott >> >> >> >> >> >> On Feb 10, 2011, at 6:05 PM, Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr. wrote: >> >>> Brian, >>> >>> Sudoku is and has been an interest of mine for about 4 years, and when I >>> play I use a braille note-taker. >>> >>> I've used a braille lite 40, and now use a braille sense. I prefer the 40 >>> cell display and set up of the braille lite, but can use the sense just as >>> well. >>> >>> The thoughts on this are as follows: >>> >>> 1. Developers for an accessible game will need to consider board >>> enquiries. How do I ask that the information I want to have be read to me. >>> >>> This is where one can get really creative with gestures, but there needs to >>> be a way to read a column, a row, and a square, as well as a way to >>> navigate quicly through the board. >>> >>> So a right, left, up, or down flick of a single finger will move you one >>> square in that direction. >>> >>> A two finger swipe in any direction will trigger a query on the row or >>> column in question. It is a bit beyond me why a player would ask for a >>> column or row to be read from right to left, or bottom to top, but we'll >>> leave this one alone since it gives players more navigational options >>> available to them. >>> >>> A double tap on the last read spot will activate it for editing, entry. >>> >>> A two finger double tap on any spot will trigger a query on that 3 by 3 >>> grid, top left to bottom right. >>> >>> There may be ways to ask the board what numbers are missing from a region, >>> but I think this should be a player's job and thought process when solving >>> the puzzle. >>> >>> One other issue is how fast you want your numbers read to you. I might like >>> to have a .75 second interval between each number spoken, while someone >>> else can go at .4 seconds, and another person might prefer a 1 second pause. >>> >>> this is probably not hard to implement into a settings option that users >>> would change. >>> >>> 2. I do have some thoughts about filling out the grid. >>> >>> A. Double tap on an empty or penciled in spot in which to enter a new >>> number. >>> >>> B. Once the edit field comes up you would have a phone stile pat 1 through >>> 9 that you could double tap to enter your answer. >>> >>> C. Another way to enter your choice once the edit comes up will be to tap >>> as many times as the number you wish to input. After you stop tapping, say >>> a second after you stop tapping, the software would confirm your entry. It >>> might say something like >>> >>> Enter a 2? Double tap for yes, tripple tap for no. >>> >>> I realize this is more cumbersome but could be consider. Option B is >>> admittedly the easiest. >>> >>> Hope these suggestions help. >>> >>> Antonio Guimaraes >>> >>> On Feb 9, 2011, at 8:50 PM, Bryan Jones wrote: >>> >>>> Greetings All, >>>> >>>> For those Sudoku players on the list, I'd like to pick your brains a bit. >>>> I've been evaluating IOS Sudoku Apps (more details at the bottom of this >>>> email) and have found a good one whose developer is very receptive to >>>> making the App accessible and would like some input from the List as to >>>> how to best handle the Sudoku Grid. Again, I don't consider myself to be a >>>> very creative thinker in this kind of task so I'm hoping some of you can >>>> throw out some good ideas. >>>> >>>> As you probably know, the standard Sudoku grid consists of 9x9 squares, >>>> subdivided into 9 smaller 3x3 squares. How do you think VO could best tell >>>> us about these squares? Do you want to hear coordinates as in Chess-wise >>>> (A1 to H8)? Would you rather hear each 3x3 grid identified uniquely? How >>>> would you expect to hear status of pencil marks? Most of these Apps have a >>>> separate Number Pad that you use to select the number you want to place on >>>> the Grid. Would you expect to first select the number and then select the >>>> destination square, or would it make more sense to select the square first >>>> and then tap the number pad? Would you want to hear entire rows and >>>> columns read? >>>> >>>> That is the end of the questions for now, but if you're interested in more >>>> info, here are some more details regarding my evaluations and these two >>>> Apps. I've been evaluating the various free Sudoku Apps and am of course >>>> running into the same issue we had with chess prior to Chess-wise being >>>> updated; that is, the Sudoku Grid is inaccessible even if the rest of the >>>> game has been properly labeled for VO. While I found one app, "Tap Sudoku" >>>> that has a semi-accessible grid, the rest of the App needs lots of work. >>>> I've been unsuccessful in my attempts to contact the Developer of Tap >>>> Sudoku and, in fact, the developer website appears to be just a marketing >>>> site. >>>> >>>> Prior to starting my search I had asked Marcel Nijman if he was interested >>>> in developing an accessible Sudoku App, since he has been so good to work >>>> with through the process of making his other Apps accessible. Marcel >>>> respectfully declined saying he wanted to focus on upgrading his current >>>> group of Apps. He did however suggest trying the "Sudoku Tablet" App as he >>>> said it looks like a well-designed App. I've tested "Sudoku Tablet" for >>>> the iPad and it's sister App, "iSudoku" for all IOS devices. While their >>>> grids are not accessible, they both have excellent labeling and navigation >>>> for VO. I contacted the Developer, Wolfgang Tumler, and like Marcel, he is >>>> very receptive to the idea of making these two Apps fully accessible. In >>>> fact, between emails this morning and afternoon Wolfgang tells me he's >>>> already added labels to the Number Pad and has begun planning how to best >>>> number the Grid and to account for pencil marks, etc on the Grid. He is >>>> reviewing the various IOS accessibility programming resources we've been >>>> handing out, and he is waiting to hear our ideas before fully implementing >>>> the accessible Grid. >>>> >>>> Link to Sudoku Tablet in the US App Store (for ipads only; Current >>>> languages: English, Spanish, German): >>>> http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/sudoku-tablet/id362562850?mt=8 >>>> >>>> Link to iSudoku Lite in the US App Store (for all IOS devices; Current >>>> languages: English, German, French): >>>> http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/isudoku-light/id287792786?mt=8 >>>> >>>> My written evaluation of Sudoku Tablet: >>>> :BEGIN VO accessibility notes for Sudoku Tablet 2.0.2. >>>> The following information applies to the free version of Sudoku Tablet >>>> 2.0.2, English language, running on 3G iPad 64GB. with IOS 4.2.1. >>>> Highlights: >>>> Highlight 1. The Grid is completely inaccessible to VoiceOver, and there >>>> is no accessible alternate method to navigate the grid. >>>> Highlight 2. The Number Pad is completely inaccessible to VoiceOver, and >>>> there is no accessible alternative method to navigate the number pad. >>>> Highlight 3: Almost all of the App's buttons and controls appear to be >>>> properly and thoroughly labeled. >>>> Highlight 4. With the exception of the grid and number pad, the app can be >>>> easily navigated with VO via both swipes and fingertip searching. >>>> Highlight 5: The paid version of Sudoku Tablet includes 5 difficulty >>>> levels, 4 styles of play and the ability to save games in progress. >>>> >>>> Here is an overview of the User interface elements as read by VO. Most of >>>> the buttons are correctly labeled and self-explanatory. The support >>>> website has an excellent and accessible description of the game's various >>>> elements. Here I will give a few details of each button and some info on >>>> it's accessibility. The main screen consists of the following elements >>>> listed in order when swiping right from the top left corner: >>>> 1, A button properly labelled "Menu." I'll describe this in detail below. >>>> 2. A button properly labeled "Restart." This simply asks you if you'd like >>>> to restart your current game. >>>> 3. A button properly labeled "Settings." This presents an accessible and >>>> well-described popup menu of six switch buttons to adjust a few features. >>>> 4. A button labeled "Purchase Tag." This button takes you to the In-App >>>> Purchase screen asking if you'd like to purchase the Unlimited version of >>>> Sudoku Tablet for US $2.99. I did not make the purchase at this time, so I >>>> don't know if the final step(s) of making the purchase are fully >>>> accessible, but all steps up to this point were fully accessible and well >>>> described.. >>>> >>>> Here are more details of the Menu button and the game interface. >>>> Double-tapping the Menu button takes you to an accessible screen where you >>>> can select the version of the game you would like to play, either >>>> Traditional Sudoku, Sudoku X, Sudoku Newspaper, Sudoku Plus or Sudoku >>>> Samurai. There is also a button on this screen which will take you back to >>>> your current game. When you double-tap one of the game buttons you are >>>> presented with a fully accessible pick list to choose your preferred level >>>> of difficulty: Simple, Easy or Normal. VO then asks you to wait while the >>>> game is being generated, and you are then presented with the inaccessible >>>> Grid and Number Pad to play the game. While those two critical elements >>>> are not accessible, it is important to note that several important >>>> controls on this screen are already fully accessible: The timer, the pause >>>> / play button, the Pencil button, the Hint button and the Undo button. >>>> :END VO accessibility notes for Sudoku Tablet 2.0.2. >>>> >>>> TIA for any thoughts and suggestions, >>>> Bryan >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "VIPhone" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to viph...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "MacVisionaries" group. >> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. 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