Hello, I do not think braille should be considered just yet when making a sudoku app.
Are these apps to be run on a mac, or iPhone? Either way I see no need to read grids at all times, only when the player makes a region query as I suggested. I bet some developer out there may be able to retrofit their existing app with VoiceOver features you may furnish. Try it I say, or you'll never know how far the developers are willing to go. Antonio Guimaraes On Feb 10, 2011, at 7:35 PM, Scott Howell wrote: > Woe, this all sounds good Antonio; however, we're talking about modifying an > existing game, not reinventing one. The various gestures would require a > substantial amount of recoding even if it would be possible. What your > talking about may even be beyond VO's abilities at this point. I really need > to go study up on Sudoku because I have an interest, but not enough knowledge > to completely understand all the aspects of the board. However, setting aside > Braille for the minute, we need to consider what is possible without > rewriting the entire interface. > Not trying to pea on your parade, but perhaps looking at this from the > perspective of what is instead of what we wish could be. DOes that make sense? > I just think if we approach the developer with all of these ideas of changing > the interface, he bay balk at the idea. Do you feel there is another > approach? Do you think the coordinates are necessary? Just trying to think > through this. > > Scott > > > > > > On Feb 10, 2011, at 6:05 PM, Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr. wrote: > >> Brian, >> >> Sudoku is and has been an interest of mine for about 4 years, and when I >> play I use a braille note-taker. >> >> I've used a braille lite 40, and now use a braille sense. I prefer the 40 >> cell display and set up of the braille lite, but can use the sense just as >> well. >> >> The thoughts on this are as follows: >> >> 1. Developers for an accessible game will need to consider board enquiries. >> How do I ask that the information I want to have be read to me. >> >> This is where one can get really creative with gestures, but there needs to >> be a way to read a column, a row, and a square, as well as a way to navigate >> quicly through the board. >> >> So a right, left, up, or down flick of a single finger will move you one >> square in that direction. >> >> A two finger swipe in any direction will trigger a query on the row or >> column in question. It is a bit beyond me why a player would ask for a >> column or row to be read from right to left, or bottom to top, but we'll >> leave this one alone since it gives players more navigational options >> available to them. >> >> A double tap on the last read spot will activate it for editing, entry. >> >> A two finger double tap on any spot will trigger a query on that 3 by 3 >> grid, top left to bottom right. >> >> There may be ways to ask the board what numbers are missing from a region, >> but I think this should be a player's job and thought process when solving >> the puzzle. >> >> One other issue is how fast you want your numbers read to you. I might like >> to have a .75 second interval between each number spoken, while someone else >> can go at .4 seconds, and another person might prefer a 1 second pause. >> >> this is probably not hard to implement into a settings option that users >> would change. >> >> 2. I do have some thoughts about filling out the grid. >> >> A. Double tap on an empty or penciled in spot in which to enter a new number. >> >> B. Once the edit field comes up you would have a phone stile pat 1 through 9 >> that you could double tap to enter your answer. >> >> C. Another way to enter your choice once the edit comes up will be to tap as >> many times as the number you wish to input. After you stop tapping, say a >> second after you stop tapping, the software would confirm your entry. It >> might say something like >> >> Enter a 2? Double tap for yes, tripple tap for no. >> >> I realize this is more cumbersome but could be consider. Option B is >> admittedly the easiest. >> >> Hope these suggestions help. >> >> Antonio Guimaraes >> >> On Feb 9, 2011, at 8:50 PM, Bryan Jones wrote: >> >>> Greetings All, >>> >>> For those Sudoku players on the list, I'd like to pick your brains a bit. >>> I've been evaluating IOS Sudoku Apps (more details at the bottom of this >>> email) and have found a good one whose developer is very receptive to >>> making the App accessible and would like some input from the List as to how >>> to best handle the Sudoku Grid. Again, I don't consider myself to be a very >>> creative thinker in this kind of task so I'm hoping some of you can throw >>> out some good ideas. >>> >>> As you probably know, the standard Sudoku grid consists of 9x9 squares, >>> subdivided into 9 smaller 3x3 squares. How do you think VO could best tell >>> us about these squares? Do you want to hear coordinates as in Chess-wise >>> (A1 to H8)? Would you rather hear each 3x3 grid identified uniquely? How >>> would you expect to hear status of pencil marks? Most of these Apps have a >>> separate Number Pad that you use to select the number you want to place on >>> the Grid. Would you expect to first select the number and then select the >>> destination square, or would it make more sense to select the square first >>> and then tap the number pad? Would you want to hear entire rows and columns >>> read? >>> >>> That is the end of the questions for now, but if you're interested in more >>> info, here are some more details regarding my evaluations and these two >>> Apps. I've been evaluating the various free Sudoku Apps and am of course >>> running into the same issue we had with chess prior to Chess-wise being >>> updated; that is, the Sudoku Grid is inaccessible even if the rest of the >>> game has been properly labeled for VO. While I found one app, "Tap Sudoku" >>> that has a semi-accessible grid, the rest of the App needs lots of work. >>> I've been unsuccessful in my attempts to contact the Developer of Tap >>> Sudoku and, in fact, the developer website appears to be just a marketing >>> site. >>> >>> Prior to starting my search I had asked Marcel Nijman if he was interested >>> in developing an accessible Sudoku App, since he has been so good to work >>> with through the process of making his other Apps accessible. Marcel >>> respectfully declined saying he wanted to focus on upgrading his current >>> group of Apps. He did however suggest trying the "Sudoku Tablet" App as he >>> said it looks like a well-designed App. I've tested "Sudoku Tablet" for the >>> iPad and it's sister App, "iSudoku" for all IOS devices. While their grids >>> are not accessible, they both have excellent labeling and navigation for >>> VO. I contacted the Developer, Wolfgang Tumler, and like Marcel, he is very >>> receptive to the idea of making these two Apps fully accessible. In fact, >>> between emails this morning and afternoon Wolfgang tells me he's already >>> added labels to the Number Pad and has begun planning how to best number >>> the Grid and to account for pencil marks, etc on the Grid. He is reviewing >>> the various IOS accessibility programming resources we've been handing out, >>> and he is waiting to hear our ideas before fully implementing the >>> accessible Grid. >>> >>> Link to Sudoku Tablet in the US App Store (for ipads only; Current >>> languages: English, Spanish, German): >>> http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/sudoku-tablet/id362562850?mt=8 >>> >>> Link to iSudoku Lite in the US App Store (for all IOS devices; Current >>> languages: English, German, French): >>> http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/isudoku-light/id287792786?mt=8 >>> >>> My written evaluation of Sudoku Tablet: >>> :BEGIN VO accessibility notes for Sudoku Tablet 2.0.2. >>> The following information applies to the free version of Sudoku Tablet >>> 2.0.2, English language, running on 3G iPad 64GB. with IOS 4.2.1. >>> Highlights: >>> Highlight 1. The Grid is completely inaccessible to VoiceOver, and there is >>> no accessible alternate method to navigate the grid. >>> Highlight 2. The Number Pad is completely inaccessible to VoiceOver, and >>> there is no accessible alternative method to navigate the number pad. >>> Highlight 3: Almost all of the App's buttons and controls appear to be >>> properly and thoroughly labeled. >>> Highlight 4. With the exception of the grid and number pad, the app can be >>> easily navigated with VO via both swipes and fingertip searching. >>> Highlight 5: The paid version of Sudoku Tablet includes 5 difficulty >>> levels, 4 styles of play and the ability to save games in progress. >>> >>> Here is an overview of the User interface elements as read by VO. Most of >>> the buttons are correctly labeled and self-explanatory. The support website >>> has an excellent and accessible description of the game's various elements. >>> Here I will give a few details of each button and some info on it's >>> accessibility. The main screen consists of the following elements listed in >>> order when swiping right from the top left corner: >>> 1, A button properly labelled "Menu." I'll describe this in detail below. >>> 2. A button properly labeled "Restart." This simply asks you if you'd like >>> to restart your current game. >>> 3. A button properly labeled "Settings." This presents an accessible and >>> well-described popup menu of six switch buttons to adjust a few features. >>> 4. A button labeled "Purchase Tag." This button takes you to the In-App >>> Purchase screen asking if you'd like to purchase the Unlimited version of >>> Sudoku Tablet for US $2.99. I did not make the purchase at this time, so I >>> don't know if the final step(s) of making the purchase are fully >>> accessible, but all steps up to this point were fully accessible and well >>> described.. >>> >>> Here are more details of the Menu button and the game interface. >>> Double-tapping the Menu button takes you to an accessible screen where you >>> can select the version of the game you would like to play, either >>> Traditional Sudoku, Sudoku X, Sudoku Newspaper, Sudoku Plus or Sudoku >>> Samurai. There is also a button on this screen which will take you back to >>> your current game. When you double-tap one of the game buttons you are >>> presented with a fully accessible pick list to choose your preferred level >>> of difficulty: Simple, Easy or Normal. VO then asks you to wait while the >>> game is being generated, and you are then presented with the inaccessible >>> Grid and Number Pad to play the game. While those two critical elements are >>> not accessible, it is important to note that several important controls on >>> this screen are already fully accessible: The timer, the pause / play >>> button, the Pencil button, the Hint button and the Undo button. >>> :END VO accessibility notes for Sudoku Tablet 2.0.2. >>> >>> TIA for any thoughts and suggestions, >>> Bryan >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "VIPhone" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to viph...@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "MacVisionaries" group. >> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. 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