The version ov "voice over" for os 9 was actualy called outspoken if I recall correctly.
Take care. S On Apr 8, 2010, at 6:44 AM, William Windels wrote: > Hi Nicolai, > > What you wrote about the languages, the automatic language detection on > websites, is already available on the iphone and this works also > wit voice-over I think. > > I tought that voiceover was already implemented since version 9 of macos. > But yes, the current version of voiceover is 3.0 and the > windows-screenreaders have a version number 9 or higher. > > About the hotkeys for menus, you need to type the exact, case sensitive, > menu-item. > This is not that easy since menu-items are mostly underlined with dots 7 and8 > while reading. > Because of that, you can't see which letter is capital or not. > > Also, dots 7 and 8 can be used in editors to mark if a text is e.g. bold, > italic,undelined... > This is not possible when text is always underlined while reading by the > voice. > > Some keys are also not allowed for assigning hotkeys to menu-items. > e.g. the f-keys im combination of ctrl, shift, commandm option. > Except the vo-keys, there are not that much f-keys used by the system in > combination with one of this 4 keys. > I am not shore about that but it's my experience. > > about the verbosity : > In my opinion, it doesn't make sence to have all things that are spoken are > also on the braille display¸. > e.g.: it's sometimes interesting to hear the tooltip of a specific element > on a website but it's not necessary to see this info on the braille display'. > also about the message bussy: why should i see this in the display ¸and , > at the same time missiong the information on the screen. > > this are some suggestions... > > thanx allot for your answer > > best regards, > william > Op 8-apr-2010, om 13:27 heeft Nicolai Svendsen het volgende geschreven: > >> Hi, >> >> VoiceOver cannot detect languages because these have not been implemented. >> Furthermore, VoiceOver has only been localized since the release of Snow >> Leopard. VoiceOver has only been around since 2004, and that is very >> important to keep in mind. Despite that, though, In my opinion it surpasses >> Windows screen access in most areas. Flash isn't very important to me, since >> you hardly got any feedback even if you could see the controls. Saying that, >> the verbosity does provide a huge amount of configuration, actually. All >> you'd need, and I'm sure more is going to be added. In Mac, you don't need >> silly tooltips to be spoken when going through elements. Or help balloons. >> VoiceOver, or just APple's accessibility policy is different in that, if you >> want information, you have to look for it without the screen reader doing >> any handholding. This is why I think that the current level of verbosity >> configuration is more than sufficient. >> >> When it comes to the selection of text on websites, it works the same way as >> it would if it was loaded into a virtual buffer, which is a downside if you >> use a Windows screen reader, in that it has to load it into the buffer after >> the initial page has been loaded. This takes longer time than it should. On >> some pages, when using the Mac, selecting text works amazingly well, and on >> some it does not. I am sure that Apple will address this, as it is an >> important feature to perfect. >> >> Keyboard shortcuts can already be assigned to all menu items within any >> selected application, as long as the menu title is written properly and as >> long as the item to which you wish to attach a hockey to is in a menu. >> >> It is important to understand that any accessibility delivered to VoiceOver >> users depends on Apple's framework, which is good in that in a lot of cases, >> the developer is not always aware of the accessibility of their application. >> The Cocoa framework ensures that a lot of applications work out of the box, >> whereas WIndows screen readers depend mainly on scripts. Also, that causes >> the scripts to break if a change is made to the user interface. The >> inability to access Flash is mainly because Adobe did not want to provide >> accessibility until now, and even then, it's supposedly going to take >> eighteen months, in which case HTML5 has probably kicked out Flash. And, >> it'll already work with VoiceOver. >> >> Regards, >> Nic >> >> Skype: Kvalme >> MSN Messenger: nico...@home3.gvdnet.dk >> AIM: cincinster >> yahoo Messenger: cin368 >> Facebook Profile >> My Twitter >> >> On Apr 8, 2010, at 1:05 AM, William Windels wrote: >> >>> Hello all, >>> I agree that Apple is doing great efforts to make their products accessible >>> and I love the mac for most of my tasks but the mac and the corresponding >>> os are not the only ones on the market... >>> They do good things like the integration of their screenreader in all of >>> their products and because of that , most of the tasks on the mac are logic. >>> It gives also a good impulse to the computermarket for blind people. >>> I mean e.g. the gestures on the trackpad of a macbook. This is something >>> new and very interesting feature that they have created. >>> Also a great advantage of apple and their accessibility-policy is the >>> feature that mac-users can give their feedback, questions and comments to a >>> special address. >>> I have the experience that they listen to us but of course , it takes some >>> time. >>> >>> but, and this is perhaps the other side of implementing accessibility >>> without paying more, >>> the mac is missing some features that are available on a winds pc in >>> combination with most of the screenreaders. >>> >>> Here , I have a list of things that I miss on a mac: >>> >>> 1- working with flash on websites; >>> 2- automatic language detection on webpages (like on the iphone); >>> 3- configurable representation of controls on the brailledisplay (this is >>> also good for people that have a little braille display); >>> 4- creation of a verbosity level where you can define which messages should >>> be spoken and/or which messages should be shown on the braille display; >>> 5- setting webspots in voiceover for whole domains (e.g. www.google.be) in >>> stead of the current viewed webpage (Window-eyes can handle this); >>> 6- dragging and dropping with the keyboard so that we can also cut elements >>> in the finder (and actions in other programs) >>> This is a possibility in voiceover to do that but I am not shore if it is >>> working and it don't give the same result. >>> 7- Selecting tekst in a browser without complex commando instructions; >>> >>> And then also 1 feature about the os: >>> the system of assigning hockeys for menu-items in the system-prefferences : >>> tab =keyboard , hotkeys. This system is not working all the time, not all >>> keys are aloud like function keys and services can't have a hockey in snow >>> leopard. >>> >>> I would ask to everybody here to send accessibility one or more of this >>> things that you find interesting or necessary. >>> Or you can give also other suggestions of course ;) >>> >>> If you do so, pls write it in your own words and not just copy pasting. >>> Otherwise , they will think that's something like spamming and perhaps they >>> won't take it serious... >>> >>> If you have a suggestion/comment to me, pls mail me private: >>> william.wind...@telenet.be >>> >>> thanx in advance, >>> best regards, >>> William >>> Op 7-apr-2010, om 23:01 heeft Ricardo Walker het volgende geschreven: >>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> Lol. The Jaws example was just that. An example. You can insert >>>> whatever screenreader into the blank you wish. :) >>>> On Apr 7, 2010, at 4:43 PM, Nicole Hutchins wrote: >>>> >>>>> I have to somewhat agree with you. >>>>> I only disagree where Jaws is related since I'm an ex user of the product >>>>> and I can speak from experience that there are just too many things I >>>>> couldn't do with Jaws that I can do with Apple's screen reader. But yes, >>>>> if something better came along, I'd definitely be willing to explore my >>>>> options there. >>>>> >>>>> Nicole >>>>> On Apr 7, 2010, at 4:22 PM, Ricardo Walker wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> >>>>>> I agree entirely. I think Apple has done great things regarding >>>>>> accessibility but, when you pledge lifetime loyalty to a company I think >>>>>> you are doing yourself a disservice. There will come a time where a >>>>>> company will just do something that will make the use of their product >>>>>> less justifiable or, something better will just come a long. If you >>>>>> just stick with them because of their name they won't work as hard for >>>>>> you. For example, If HP said all there notebooks would come with a >>>>>> screenreader like Jaws or windows eyes, and you get upgrades for the >>>>>> life of your PC, I think most sensible blind people would have to at >>>>>> least explore the option. If you like something buy all means it is >>>>>> your right to scream it from the mountain tops but, it can sometimes >>>>>> work against you as far as credibility. If I hear someone say I buy a >>>>>> certain brand no matter what, I instantly devalue there opinion on said >>>>>> product or brand. >>>>>> On Apr 7, 2010, at 3:45 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> For example, none of apple's computers these days come with BluRay. I >>>>>>> don't need BluRay technology at this point so don't care, but everyone >>>>>>> else is making computers that have it. We can go on and on about things >>>>>>> that Apple doesn't give to their users. As of now, their products work >>>>>>> really great for me and I love them. But there is no reason for me not >>>>>>> to switch to something else in the future if I like it better, or is >>>>>>> more efficient. >>>>>>> On Apr 7, 2010, at 2:43 PM, Olivia Norman wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> LOL! I do kind of worship apple, but I have a hard time wondering what >>>>>>>> products could be better than apple's for a variety of reasons, ease >>>>>>>> of use, accessibility, design, etc. I could go on, but will refrain! >>>>>>>> Olivia >>>>>>>> On Apr 7, 2010, at 2:30 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The thing is that some people find it cool to show that they are >>>>>>>>> using an Iphone, a BlackBerry or whatever. Some people just don't >>>>>>>>> care. I personally use Apple stuff all day because they help me to be >>>>>>>>> productive and they do everything I want them to do. But it has >>>>>>>>> already been mentioned before on this list that Apple is doing things >>>>>>>>> that are not all that good, particularly regarding patents. We can't >>>>>>>>> forget that accessibility should be a right for us, and not something >>>>>>>>> that we should be surprised to find right out of the box. Off course >>>>>>>>> it's great that Apple decided to implement VO on all their devices, >>>>>>>>> but honestly if something that I consider better comes out, I will >>>>>>>>> consider switching. I will not stick to Apple just because it's >>>>>>>>> Apple. It just doesn't make any sense to me to warship a company like >>>>>>>>> that. >>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 2010, at 3:24 PM, Bryan Smart wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Yeh, but if they're using peoples' e-mail to advertise, they should >>>>>>>>>> be paying for that privledge. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> What-ever. No one there cares what I think about stuff like this, >>>>>>>>>> anyway. *smile* I have seen Blackberrys do this, and I think that it >>>>>>>>>> is just as lame. If I'm sending e-mail from a free mail account, >>>>>>>>>> then they can advertise in my mail, since they're providing the mail >>>>>>>>>> free as an ad supported service. I suppose I just think that Apple >>>>>>>>>> stuff should be a little more classy than that. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Bryan >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: macvoiceover-bou...@freelists.org >>>>>>>>>> [mailto:macvoiceover-bou...@freelists.org] On Behalf Of Olivia Norman >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 8:56 AM >>>>>>>>>> To: macvoiceo...@freelists.org >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [macvoiceover] Re: Apple Announces iPhone OS 4.0 Event for >>>>>>>>>> 08/April/2010-- The Mac-cessibility Network - News [Lioncourt.com] >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Well. Cell companies do it, too. They'll say sent from my verizon >>>>>>>>>> wireless blackberry, or sent from blackberry by AT&T. Marketing, I >>>>>>>>>> guess. I kind of like the word to know I use apple products, so it's >>>>>>>>>> Alright with me :) Sent from the future >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 2010, at 8:52 AM, Bryan Smart wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Coincidentally, why do iPhones and iPads always throw that "Sent >>>>>>>>>>> from my iPhone/iPad" remark in there? I could write "Sent from my >>>>>>>>>>> Nokia E71", or "Sent from my MacBook Pro"., but who cares what >>>>>>>>>>> device I'm reading mail with? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I think its shameless and very noobish for Apple to put that in >>>>>>>>>>> there by default. Be prepared to see posts all the time with "Sent >>>>>>>>>>> from my iPad". I think that it will soon become a kind of kick me >>>>>>>>>>> sign. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Bryan >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my MacBook, with Microsoft Outlook, over Charter >>>>>>>>>>> Internet. >>>>>>>>>>> lol >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: macvoiceover-bou...@freelists.org >>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:macvoiceover-bou...@freelists.org] On Behalf Of Olivia >>>>>>>>>>> Norman >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 4:39 PM >>>>>>>>>>> To: macvoiceo...@freelists.org >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [macvoiceover] Re: [macvoiceover] Apple Announces iPhone >>>>>>>>>>> OS >>>>>>>>>>> 4.0 Event for 08/April/2010-- The Mac-cessibility Network - News >>>>>>>>>>> [Lioncourt.com] >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Another piece of technology I. Will want! >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 2010, at 3:50 PM, Russell Solowoniuk >>>>>>>>>>> <rsolowon...@shaw.ca> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.lioncourt.com/2010/04/05/apple-announces-iphone-os-4-0-eve >>>>>>>>>>> nt-for-08april2010/> >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.lioncourt.com/2010/04/05/apple-announces-iphone-os-4-0-even >>>>>>>>>>> t-for-08april2010/ >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Click on the link below to go to our homepage. >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.icanworkthisthing.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Manage your subscription by using the web interface on the link >>>>>>>>>>>> below. >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.freelists.org/list/macvoiceover >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Users can subscribe to this list by sending email to >>>>>>>>>>>> macvoiceover-requ...@freelists.org >>>>>>>>>>>> with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by logging into the Web >>>>>>>>>>>> interface at http://www.freelists.org/list/macvoiceover >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> "Innovation distinguishes between a leader and a follower", Steve >>>>>>>>>> Jobs >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Click on the link below to go to our homepage. >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.icanworkthisthing.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Manage your subscription by using the web interface on the link >>>>>>>>>>> below. >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.freelists.org/list/macvoiceover >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Users can subscribe to this list by sending email to >>>>>>>>>>> macvoiceover-requ...@freelists.org >>>>>>>>>>> with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by logging into the Web >>>>>>>>>>> interface at http://www.freelists.org/list/macvoiceover >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Click on the link below to go to our homepage. >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.icanworkthisthing.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Manage your subscription by using the web interface on the link >>>>>>>>>>> below. >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.freelists.org/list/macvoiceover >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Users can subscribe to this list by sending email to >>>>>>>>>>> macvoiceover-requ...@freelists.org >>>>>>>>>>> with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by logging into the Web >>>>>>>>>>> interface at http://www.freelists.org/list/macvoiceover >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Click on the link below to go to our homepage. >>>>>>>>>> http://www.icanworkthisthing.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Manage your subscription by using the web interface on the link >>>>>>>>>> below. >>>>>>>>>> http://www.freelists.org/list/macvoiceover >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Users can subscribe to this list by sending email to >>>>>>>>>> macvoiceover-requ...@freelists.org >>>>>>>>>> with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by logging into the Web >>>>>>>>>> interface at http://www.freelists.org/list/macvoiceover >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "Innovation distinguishes between a leader and a follower", Steve Jobs >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Click on the link below to go to our homepage. >>>>>>>>> http://www.icanworkthisthing.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Manage your subscription by using the web interface on the link below. >>>>>>>>> http://www.freelists.org/list/macvoiceover >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Users can subscribe to this list by sending email to >>>>>>>>> macvoiceover-requ...@freelists.org >>>>>>>>> with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by logging into the Web >>>>>>>>> interface at http://www.freelists.org/list/macvoiceover >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Click on the link below to go to our homepage. >>>>>>>> http://www.icanworkthisthing.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Manage your subscription by using the web interface on the link below. >>>>>>>> http://www.freelists.org/list/macvoiceover >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Users can subscribe to this list by sending email to >>>>>>>> macvoiceover-requ...@freelists.org >>>>>>>> with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by logging into the Web >>>>>>>> interface at 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