Hi Eleni, Good job getting the disc ejected. If your machine is booted up, can you try Fn-VO-F5 as well as VO-F5 to start up VoiceOver? If your keyboard preferences file got corrupted, you might also have to use the Fn key. Secondly, if you have headphones that can plug into the line-in port (this is the mini-jack port closest to the front of the laptop -- just behind the rectangular lock hole at the left side), can you check that VoiceOver output is not going out there? It could happen that the reason you're not hearing VoiceOver is that the internal speakers are damaged, but you still might be able to hear VoiceOver through the headphone jack.
If you still don't hear anything from VoiceOver, I'd recommend that you try to boot up your MacBook in safe mode. This is a boot mode where only a restricted subset of the computer's facilities are turned on, to allow for trouble-shooting. This also includes keeping audio turned off, but sometimes just booting up into safe mode will fix your problems, and then when you reboot again after that things will work. Here's why: as part of booting into safe mode, the system clears out problematic cache files, and also repairs disk permissions. Safe mode also disables login items, so if there are problem programs that run at startup that interfere with the computer's functions, this also takes care of them. To boot into safe mode, you hold down the Shift key just after you hear the tone when you start up your computer, and you'll need to keep holding it down until the mode starts up. Since you won't be able to use the visual cues, you might want to hold down the shift key for as long as 30 seconds (although the disk will probably engage somewhere around 15-20 seconds). Read through the Apple document on starting up Mac OS X in safe mode: http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1455 Because the system goes through quite a lot of tasks, including running Disk Utility's repair of permissions, this can take a while to complete. I'd guess that running repair permissions could take up to ten minutes depending on how full your disk is and how much repairing the system has to do. I'd just leave the MacBook to complete all its tasks. Again, if there's someone sighted around they can tell you when the login prompt shows up, or if you have previously set up your computer to allow remote logins you can tell when things are done by when you can log in. However, you're pretty safe just waiting twenty minutes, and then reboot normally -- e.g. press the power switch and then press return to signify shutdown. Then, power up to boot normally, and see whether things are working again. If you want to read up about exactly what happens during a safe boot you can check this Apple document on "What is Safe Boot, Safe Mode?" http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1564 The final line of the summary of what gets fixed simply says: "Taken together, these changes can help resolve software or directory issues that may exist on the startup volume." This does often work to fix problems. HTH. Cheers, Esther On Dec 26, 2009, Tiffany D wrote: > Well, I reset the pram and it ejected the cd. That time, it didn't > chime but I heard the cd working four times before it ejected. So I > did it again and let go after it chimed four times. After awhile, I > tried command-f5 with no result. So I restarted the machine and tried > the same and got the same result. At least, the disk is out of the > machine and it's starting from the normal hard disk. What should I do > now? Should I attempt to put the Leopard installation dvd in and try > booting from there? I recently bought an external cd burner for my > Acer Aspire One. They say it'll work on that machine but also on > others. If I have a problem with the disk drive on the Mac, can I get > it to boot from the Acer drive if I plug it into the usb port? We > have an appointment with Apple, but if we can fix it here, that would > be much better. > > On 26/12/2009, bmustillrose <bmustillr...@gmail.com> wrote: >> Why don't you firstly do what others have suggested and reset the >> pram? >> Admitidly, a non ejecting cd drive doesn't sound like a pram issue, >> but I've scene a pram reset solve some crazy issues in my time and at >> the end of the day, its not going to do any harm to try. >> For some reason, your board isn't seeing your drive at the time when >> it checks what devices are connected to the system that are bootable. >> There are others on this list who have had years and years more mac >> expearience than me, but I'm wondering if tdm will work in this >> situation since efi isn't seeing the drive? >> >> Esther already posted a link to some great instructions about tdm, >> but >> to answer your question, you have to turn your mb off when you put >> the >> firewire cable in, but, of course, it needs to be turned on before >> the >> other mac can access the drive. >> >> I'm quite sure that its not as simple as making your mac boot from >> your harddrive, lets try resetting the pram then recovering some of >> your files via tdm after which you can send it to apple. >> >> On 26/12/2009, Tiffany D <tiffani...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> Hi guys. I figured out at least one thing. The disk that I was >>> using >>> wasn't the right one. It says Leopard Installation Disk 1. Today, >>> Mom found one called Leopard Installation DVD. In anyy case, how >>> do I >>> get it to boot from the hard drive and not the cd? I still can't >>> get >>> the cd out of the drive cause the same problem is happening. Do I >>> need to have my Mac turned on in order to use it's hard disk under >>> target mode? Can I delete files that way? >>> >>> On 25/12/2009, Esther <mori...@mac.com> wrote: >>>> Eleni, >>>> >>>> My guess was that the CD or DVD drive might have gotten warped when >>>> you hit the keyboard, so that the startup discs are having trouble >>>> fully spinning up. The reason I suggested target disk mode is that >>>> you should be able to bring up the disk of your MacBooks's hard >>>> drive >>>> this way even under conditions when you can't get your machine to >>>> boot >>>> by itself or when using the startup CD or DVD doesn't work. If you >>>> have a firewire cable, just connect your MacBook to your Mom's >>>> MacBook >>>> -- firewire port to firewire port. Then power on your MacBook and >>>> hold down the "T" key of its keyboard. It should show up as >>>> another >>>> "Macintosh HD" in the Finder sidebar of your Mom's MacBook, just as >>>> though it were an externally mounted hard drive. Navigate and copy >>>> over any files you need. When you're done, arrow up out of any >>>> files >>>> that are on your MacBook and eject the drive with Command-E from >>>> the >>>> Finder sidebar of your mom's MacBook. You won't be able to eject >>>> unless you're completely out of the hard drive -- if you're even >>>> pointed to a file on that drive in Finder on your Mom's machine the >>>> drive is considered to be in use and won't eject. Hope this >>>> works for >>>> you. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Esther >>>> >>>> >>>> Tiffany D wrote: >>>> >>>>> Well, I tried the Leopard disk with c and it doesn't do anything >>>>> except make alot of noise and now I can't get it to boot from >>>>> the hard >>>>> disk. I heard it start up and tried combinations of command-f5, >>>>> vo-f5, vo-ctrl-f5 and vo-ctrl-command-f5 and I couldn't get it to >>>>> talk. Whenever I try to hit eject it just slows down the >>>>> drive. When >>>>> I hold it down it stops it, but as soon as I let go, it starts >>>>> again. >>>>> I should've tried that pram thing first, whatever that is. Now I >>>>> don't even know if I can still do it if it's booting off of that >>>>> cd. >>>>> I'm sick of feeling like I need to be some kind of technician or >>>>> scientist just to use my computer. I've never seen anything more >>>>> frustrating in my life than this machine. I just want my stuff >>>>> off >>>>> and saved, the refirbished model and then a quick trip to ebay. >>>>> Btw, >>>>> I don't blame you guys, so do forgive my anger. You're all >>>>> extremely >>>>> wonderful and helpful. This is just driving me crazy, >>>>> particularly >>>>> since I now have no choice but to keep leaving my apartment and >>>>> coming >>>>> downstairs every time I want to use the desktop, since my >>>>> netbook is >>>>> still being repaired and my DOS machines didn't come in yet. >>>>> >>>>> On 23/12/2009, Esther <mori...@mac.com> wrote: >>>>>> Hi Eleni, >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes, you can use your the first of your Leopard Startup disks >>>>>> to book >>>>>> up your system if you hold down the "c" key when it starts up. I >>>>>> thought that was what you were trying to do when you said you >>>>>> inserted >>>>>> the Leopard installation disk and the machine made a strange >>>>>> sound >>>>>> like a buzzing, but didn't do anything else. That will let you >>>>>> boot >>>>>> up from the CD or DVD instead of your hard drive. You can also >>>>>> use >>>>>> disk utility to repair permissions. I think that after you >>>>>> boot from >>>>>> the install disk, you listen until the disk stops spinning and >>>>>> then >>>>>> use VO-F5 (or VO-Fn-F5) to start up speech. Then you VO-M to the >>>>>> menu >>>>>> bar and arrow over to Disk Utilities and press enter. Then you >>>>>> can >>>>>> select your hard drive and repair permissions, in case things >>>>>> were >>>>>> left in an odd state by your shutdown. Somebody else may be >>>>>> able to >>>>>> walk you through this because it's been a long time since I did a >>>>>> boot >>>>>> from startup disks. See whether your machine boots up normally >>>>>> after >>>>>> your repair permissions. You may have to select your startup >>>>>> disk as >>>>>> your hard drive before you reboot. >>>>>> >>>>>> Anne gave some nice instructions about how to reset the PRAM in >>>>>> the >>>>>> archives that give more details than my description: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries%40googlegroups.com/msg08901.html >>>>>> >>>>>> You still might have to reset the PRAM if you get no sound >>>>>> whatsoever >>>>>> (from speakers or headphones). >>>>>> >>>>>> Target disk mode should work even in some circumstances where you >>>>>> can't manage to boot your MacBook up -- it can still get >>>>>> recognized >>>>>> as >>>>>> a temporary hard drive of the other Mac to which you connect via >>>>>> Firewire. Make sure you eject the drive (Command-E) from the >>>>>> other >>>>>> Computer before you power your MacBook down again. >>>>>> >>>>>> That's most of what I can think of, since I may be off for a >>>>>> bit. On >>>>>> the extension cords to the power adapters, the idea is to give >>>>>> you >>>>>> the >>>>>> flexibility to either carry the brick with the shorter cable (for >>>>>> compactness) or the combination with longer (and thicker >>>>>> therefore >>>>>> heavier) extension cable. At home, I leave the extension cord >>>>>> plugged in to the power adapter. I don't think that Apple >>>>>> sells the >>>>>> extension cable separately, although they include it with every >>>>>> power >>>>>> adapter you buy. I know they include it in the AirPort Express >>>>>> Stereo >>>>>> Connection Kit along with the cables that can connect to your >>>>>> stereo >>>>>> system, but that's still something like $40. >>>>>> >>>>>> Here's a site that sells the extension cords separately for >>>>>> $14.77 >>>>>> (from a Google search): >>>>>> http://www.mac-pro.com/Extension-Cord-PB-G4-iBook-AC-Adapter >>>>>> >>>>>> Although it's listed as for a G4 PowerBook, they not that it will >>>>>> work >>>>>> for a MacBook. (And I use the extension cords for my old >>>>>> PowerBook >>>>>> and >>>>>> my MacBook interchangeably). >>>>>> >>>>>> HTH >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> >>>>>> Esther >>>>>> >>>>>> Tiffany D wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> My external hard drive stopped working and nothing at all was >>>>>>> done >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> it to cause it to break. I'm getting a compact flash card or >>>>>>> two >>>>>>> with >>>>>>> a usb reader for the desktops, netbook etc. and a pcmcia >>>>>>> adapter/reader for the laptops and Braille Note. I feel alot >>>>>>> more >>>>>>> secure with those. I just want to make sure that it's DOS and >>>>>>> Windows-compatible first. I only use about 20gb on any given >>>>>>> machine >>>>>>> and that's giving myself several gigs of extra space, so I don't >>>>>>> need >>>>>>> a huge drive/card. The other Mac is also a Macbook, so it >>>>>>> does have >>>>>>> the port. Opa! I like this idea. I'll try it if nothing else >>>>>>> works. >>>>>>> In the meantime, I've also heard that I can insert the first >>>>>>> Leopard >>>>>>> disk and hit c or d and that might get it to work. I'll have to >>>>>>> see. >>>>>>> Assuming that I can get VoiceOver working, I know I can get >>>>>>> some usb >>>>>>> sticks to use temporarily so I can retrieve my info and put it >>>>>>> on my >>>>>>> XP machine. I'll have to check my Mac bag now. I no longer >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> original box, so hopefully, I put it in the bag. I never even >>>>>>> realised it came with an extention cord. I'm used to the >>>>>>> cords on >>>>>>> laptops being a decent length so one of these isn't necessary, >>>>>>> but >>>>>>> it'll certainly make my life easier. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Esther wrote: >>>>>>>> Hi Elen and Chris, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Did you check whether you can hear VoiceOver through your >>>>>>>> headphones? >>>>>>>> One possibility is that you damaged the speaker connection >>>>>>>> and can >>>>>>>> still get VoiceOver if you plug in headphones. If it's simply a >>>>>>>> case >>>>>>>> of not hearing sound, you can try resetting the PRAM, since >>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>> module contains information about initial volume settings and >>>>>>>> also >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> startup disk selection. You'll have to reboot your computer >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> hold >>>>>>>> down the Control, Option, P, and R keys simultaneously as >>>>>>>> outlined in >>>>>>>> this Apple Support document about resetting your Mac's PRAM: >>>>>>>> http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1379 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Chris, I'm not sure that she has a fully working system to >>>>>>>> back up, >>>>>>>> since she's talking about connecting the MacBook to another >>>>>>>> Mac to >>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>> the files off. Eleni, here's what I think may work: get a >>>>>>>> firewire >>>>>>>> cable and plug it in between your MacBook and the other Mac. >>>>>>>> (I'm >>>>>>>> assuming that the Desktop Mac has a Firewire port.) Then, >>>>>>>> power up >>>>>>>> your MacBook while holding down the "T" key. This lets you >>>>>>>> boot up >>>>>>>> into target disk mode. What happens is that the laptop's hard >>>>>>>> drive >>>>>>>> shows up as a second drive of the desktop Mac (but probably >>>>>>>> also >>>>>>>> named >>>>>>>> "Macintosh HD") under the devices in the sidebar of Finder. >>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>> first >>>>>>>> "Macintosh HD" will be the hard drive for the desktop Mac. The >>>>>>>> second >>>>>>>> one (VO-Down arrow) in the sidebar will be the drive of your >>>>>>>> MacBook. >>>>>>>> You should be able to access the files you want in Finder and >>>>>>>> copy >>>>>>>> them over to the Desktop Mac or to other hard drives or >>>>>>>> peripherals >>>>>>>> attached to the Desktop Mac. I've never had to do this kind of >>>>>>>> file >>>>>>>> recovery -- usually I have a cloned drive of my laptop to >>>>>>>> recover >>>>>>>> files from -- but I just tried booting my 5+some years old >>>>>>>> Powerbook >>>>>>>> up in target disk mode connected to my MacBook. Basically, you >>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>> be able to boot your machine in target disk mode to another >>>>>>>> machine >>>>>>>> under circumstances where you can't get your system to fully >>>>>>>> boot >>>>>>>> up >>>>>>>> by itself. However, I would first try resetting the PRAM since >>>>>>>> it's >>>>>>>> possible that might fix the boot up and/or VoiceOver speaking >>>>>>>> problem. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Here's the Apple support document on how to use Target Disk >>>>>>>> mode: >>>>>>>> http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1661 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You should have your MacBook connected to AC power if you're >>>>>>>> going to >>>>>>>> be using it in this mode for any extended period (e.g. for >>>>>>>> copying >>>>>>>> files). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Finally, I'm puzzled by something you mentioned in one of your >>>>>>>> earlier >>>>>>>> posts (on converting movies -- something I'm not familiar with) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Tiffany D wrote: >>>>>>>>> It's bad enough that this is a large machine and that >>>>>>>>> the charger cord is so short it's laughable, but when I >>>>>>>>> can't do >>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>> work and ordinary things, it really gets on my nerves. >>>>>>>> It sounds as though you're not using the extension cord that >>>>>>>> came >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> your computer. Each Mac comes with a power adapter whose >>>>>>>> corner >>>>>>>> has a >>>>>>>> plug attachment whose prongs (for U.S. power plugs) can >>>>>>>> simply flip >>>>>>>> down and be plugged into an AC outlet. That corner piece can >>>>>>>> also be >>>>>>>> unplugged and the power plug for a different country inserted. >>>>>>>> However, for all the U.S. Macs, there's also an extension >>>>>>>> plug that >>>>>>>> comes with the power adapter. That's a heavier cable that ends >>>>>>>> in a >>>>>>>> three-prong plug and whose other end can be plugged into the >>>>>>>> corner >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> the power adapter when you pull off the plug attachment. >>>>>>>> Aren't >>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>> using this? I normally keep this cord plus my Mac power >>>>>>>> adapter >>>>>>>> unless I want to carry less, or if I don't have any outlets >>>>>>>> available >>>>>>>> that can accept the third prong. The extension cord is usually >>>>>>>> packed >>>>>>>> in with the cables that come with the MacBook. Assuming that >>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>> had >>>>>>>> the same box that I did, this was in the rectangular bay in >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> foam >>>>>>>> at the front of the box. You shouldn't have any problems >>>>>>>> with the >>>>>>>> cord length if you're using the extension cord. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> HTH >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Esther >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Chris Blouch wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sounds like you got a dud, which happens on all computers of >>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>> brands >>>>>>>>> from time to time. Still doesn't make it a pleasant >>>>>>>>> experience. My >>>>>>>>> wife's MacBook has been shipped to AppleCare twice now with >>>>>>>>> a dead >>>>>>>>> motherboad (the first time) and a dead hard drive (the second >>>>>>>>> time). >>>>>>>>> Since I convinced her to switch from her Dell I got to hear >>>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>> it. Of >>>>>>>>> course the Dell had already had its share of failures >>>>>>>>> hardware and >>>>>>>>> otherwise so it wasn't a huge armtwist. She does like it >>>>>>>>> when it >>>>>>>>> works. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> That said, as far as a backup goes, you could just plug in an >>>>>>>>> external >>>>>>>>> hard drive and copy to it anything you care about. Time >>>>>>>>> machine >>>>>>>>> also >>>>>>>>> works well and will do an incremental backup every 60 >>>>>>>>> minutes. The >>>>>>>>> UI >>>>>>>>> isn't very accessible but if you had to reinstall things there >>>>>>>>> is a >>>>>>>>> step >>>>>>>>> in the setup where you can restore from a timeMachine >>>>>>>>> backup, so >>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>>> things really went pear shaped you could at least get your >>>>>>>>> files >>>>>>>>> back. >>>>>>>>> The time machine backup is organized so you could go to >>>>>>>>> DriveName/ComputerName/Latest/YourDriveName and find >>>>>>>>> everything >>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>> backed up from your drive, so you don't have to use their >>>>>>>>> GUI at >>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>> once it's turned on. I'd get an external drive roughly 2x >>>>>>>>> the size >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> the drive you want to back up. That way you'll have room for a >>>>>>>>> full >>>>>>>>> backup and lots of incrementals. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hope this helps. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> CB >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Eleni Vamvakari wrote: >>>>>>>>>> So the Mac quit on me again, no more than two weeks after I >>>>>>>>>> got >>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>> back from Apple. I was trying to use that converter program >>>>>>>>>> and it >>>>>>>>>> just sat there and did nothing, as I've said in another post. >>>>>>>>>> Then, >>>>>>>>>> it just disappeared. One minute it was open and the next >>>>>>>>>> it was >>>>>>>>>> gone. >>>>>>>>>> When I reloaded it, I couldn't get into it's menus. I >>>>>>>>>> could only >>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>> into the Apple and other menus by hitting VO-m twice. Now >>>>>>>>>> I was >>>>>>>>>> really annoyed, so I did two bad things. First, I pounded my >>>>>>>>>> hand on >>>>>>>>>> the computer and second, I shut it off with the power button >>>>>>>>>> instead >>>>>>>>>> of going through the normal shut-down process. As a >>>>>>>>>> result, the >>>>>>>>>> hyphin key came up a little (don't ask how, since I wasn't >>>>>>>>>> anywhere >>>>>>>>>> near it) and when I turned it back on, I got no speech. No >>>>>>>>>> matter >>>>>>>>>> what I did, I couldn't get VoiceOver to start. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Two days ago, Mom came up to try to help me but with no >>>>>>>>>> success. >>>>>>>>>> When she turned it on, she only saw an apple going around and >>>>>>>>>> around >>>>>>>>>> and then a blank screen. We tried the tech tool cd but >>>>>>>>>> when we >>>>>>>>>> put >>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>> in, nothing happened. So we tried the Leopard installation >>>>>>>>>> disk. >>>>>>>>>> This time, the cd drive made a bit of a strange sound (sort >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> like a >>>>>>>>>> buzzing) but did nothing else either good or bad. I heard >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> drive >>>>>>>>>> sound getting louder, as it usually does and then it went >>>>>>>>>> quiet. >>>>>>>>>> Yesterday, I hooked up the external keyboard but that >>>>>>>>>> didn't work >>>>>>>>>> either. The machine turns on, makes the start-up sound and I >>>>>>>>>> know >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> hard disk is doing something, But I can't get it to talk. If >>>>>>>>>> anyone >>>>>>>>>> can offer me a suggestion as to what I can do, I'd sincerely >>>>>>>>>> appreciate it. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> In the meantime, we called Apple. They said they'd give us a >>>>>>>>>> refirbished model, but now I have to wait for someone to >>>>>>>>>> bring me >>>>>>>>>> and/or it to the store. I know that I misused the Mac but it >>>>>>>>>> still >>>>>>>>>> shouldn't be acting like this. It's not like I spilled a >>>>>>>>>> whole >>>>>>>>>> cup >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> coffee in the keyboard and threw it out the window. I >>>>>>>>>> seriously >>>>>>>>>> can't >>>>>>>>>> take this anymore. Yes, Leopard does have some advantages >>>>>>>>>> over >>>>>>>>>> Windows. But what is the advantage of having a $2,000 >>>>>>>>>> machine >>>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>> always breaks down and when a cheaper one works just as >>>>>>>>>> well? My >>>>>>>>>> AppleCare is about to expire, and when it does, I can't keep >>>>>>>>>> shelling >>>>>>>>>> out money every time this thing decides to break down. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Anyway, I asked a friend about how I can save my files and >>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>> them >>>>>>>>>> off of there and he suggested I hook up my Mac and the >>>>>>>>>> household >>>>>>>>>> Mac >>>>>>>>>> via a fire wire connection and use Migration Assistant. >>>>>>>>>> How does >>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>> work? I can't ask Joanie, cause she barely uses it and >>>>>>>>>> only for >>>>>>>>>> very >>>>>>>>>> basic things, and Mom's just learning how to use a computer. >>>>>>>>>> Please, >>>>>>>>>> can anyone help me so that I don't mess up the other machine? >>>>>>>>>> Can I >>>>>>>>>> transfer files to a cd or usb stick with this program and >>>>>>>>>> is it >>>>>>>>>> possible for me to delete the ones off of my machine with it? >>>>>>>>>> Btw, >>>>>>>>>> I've never used Time Machine, if that's required to use >>>>>>>>>> Migration >>>>>>>>>> Assistant. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>> Eleni >>>>>>>>>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
