Accessibility bugs are no more or less important. While Apple took a year to fix iBooks, they have yet to fix broken display drivers on 2011 Macbook Pros under Mavericks, and now Yosemite; they took months to fix a bug in Mavericks where many Airs failed to reconnect to wifi upon waking; they still call Siri a beta, and it still doesn't work as well as it could; it took them two years to introduce the free battery replacement for certain iPhone 5 units; and let's not even talk about the security bugs they take a while to fix and that they rarely officially discuss.. In short, Apple's bug priorities are a total mystery, and accessibility problems are no exception. If a dedicated screen reader, updated more frequently and under more open development, is what you prefer, there's nothing at all wrong with using NVDA under Windows. That's why I love that NVDA, being free, puts Windows users in the same position as Mac users: free screen-reading. Competition is great, and if you don't want to take the bad of one company along with its good, take the bad of another company. No one will be perfect, but some products will fit peoples' needs and preferences better than others. If they didn't, one company would satisfy everyone and it would never go anywhere.
I guess what I'm saying is: use what you prefer to use, and what you feel gives you the best balance of support, functionality, problems, and fixes. We live in a time when we finally have that choice, and that's a wonderful thing. Aside from that, I can't say more than what Buddy has already said. > On Oct 19, 2014, at 8:40 PM, Buddy Brannan <bu...@brannan.name> wrote: > > What proof do you have that these issues weren't (and aren't) paid attention > to? Again, it's a matter of priority. Not everything can be done in a given > release under a given time line. If Apple waited for everything to be > bug-free, nothing would get released. Ever. If you have real concrete proof > that we're actually being ignored, I'd be interested in seeing it. > > Let's take iBooks as an example. When iBooks came out on Mavericks, it was > pretty difficult to use, if not mostly unusable. It's a lot better, although > it took a while. I was one who reported the iBooks problem. And it got worked > out, in time. Ditto the issue with Textedit not reading documents past the > first page. This took several release cycles to be fixed. But it did get > fixed. I've seen absolutely nothing to indicate that Apple is ignoring us, > that accessibility is no longer important, or anything of the kind. Nothing. > > -- > Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA > Phone: 814-860-3194 > Mobile: 814-431-0962 > Email: bu...@brannan.name > > > >> On Oct 19, 2014, at 8:23 PM, Pamela Francis <gypsykitt...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Hi Buddy, >> I can't disagree with your post, however my question to you is this why when >> there are visually impaired beta testers under NDA specifically to report >> issues that deal with accessibility does Apple not pay attention to what is >> being reported to them? If it was something to do with graphics for the way >> another file was managed that handled iMessage as an example that was broken >> having nothing to do with us it will get fixed. However if the same issue >> happened to us because of our accessibility needs, we would be further down >> the queue. That's the issue I have. Is not about special treatment. Our >> accessibility to their equipment, is as important as any other function of >> the unit. >> Pam Francis >> >> On Oct 19, 2014, at 6:33 PM, Buddy Brannan <bu...@brannan.name> wrote: >> >> See, here's the thing. We *are* being treated like everyone else. Now that >> we have mainstream access to mainstream products, that also means that our >> bugs get stuck in the queue with everyone else's bugs. They get prioritized >> along with everybody else's bugs. And they get fixed in the schedule with >> everybody else's bugs. The tradeoff we get for out of the box accessibility >> from a mainstream manufacturer is that we don't get special releases or >> fixes specific to our needs. We get them on the same schedule as everyone >> else's bugs. Sometimes we may not like the priority our requests get, but >> it's the price we pay for getting exactly what we've asked for for years. >> >> Change is inevitable. iTunes has changed. I'm not a huge fan of the change >> either, but there it is, and I can still use it, even if I like it less. My >> like or dislike of it, however, doesn't have any bearing on whether or not >> it's accessible. Same with Yosemite in general; it's changed. I haven't >> really had any real problems with it, generally speaking. I mostly like the >> changes, apart of course for iTunes 12. But I'm definitely not seeing >> significant accessibility impacts on what I do with OS X from day to day. >> >> Yep. Early betas were pretty awful. Early betas for iOS8 were also horribly >> broken. But that's why they're betas. I've told people who have asked me >> whether iOS8 is worth having, I've told them that I have a pretty skewed >> view on that, since by comparison to the early betas, it's really good, so I >> have no significant complaints. Well...I have to say, I've recently had >> occasion to look at iTunes Radio, and notice that it doesn't really read the >> way they're supposed to. I expect it will get fixed in due course, but, >> again, on Apple's schedule, along with everybody else's bugs, in the queue, >> in its order, in priority with everybody else's bugs. Because seriously, if >> you think that we're the only ones dealing with bugs, sometimes really >> inconvenient bugs, you're at best naive, at worst delusional. >> >> Anyway, yes. We have gotten exactly what we've been asking for. That >> sometimes means unpleasant side effects. Myself, I'm happy to take the >> unpleasant side effects as a part of the whole package. Does this make me an >> Apple apologist? Does this mean that I'm willing to settle for the crumbs >> from the table, as it were, and am content with my lot as a second-class >> citizen? far from it. It means I recognize that my problems are a subset of >> all the problems that Apple is dealing with to make things work, sometimes >> in the face of pretty significant change. >> >> Absolutely send notes to the accessibility team. But if you do, be specific. >> If you can't be specific, don't bother, because no one can fix bugs without >> specific ways to reproduce them. >> >> -- >> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA >> Phone: 814-860-3194 >> Mobile: 814-431-0962 >> Email: bu...@brannan.name >> >> >> >>> On Oct 19, 2014, at 7:09 PM, Pamela Francis <gypsykitt...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> In the answer to a couple of your questions, ask for a company making their >>> products usable by the disabled, do you or do you not remember what sharp >>> did for us with talking clocks and calculators? Do you also know that >>> Panasonic makes optional talking caller ID in its cordless phones? For >>> years swans foods offered all of their catalogs in braille along with their >>> cooking directions as one could also read on their boxes. It is not >>> unreasonable or pompous to expect to be treated the same as anyone else in >>> the same store paying the same money for the same product. If you consider >>> that pompous, you must be living with your parents who do everything for >>> you. I do not. I've lived away from my family since 1974, then married, >>> raise two children and have four grandchildren. I've been through the times >>> where we didn't as much as have digital readings on elevators or braille on >>> hotel room doors. I travel anywhere I want to go, do anything I want to do. >>> I do not expect special treatment. I ask for what I need. >>> >>> Pam Francis >>> >>> On Oct 19, 2014, at 5:10 PM, The Believer <ancient.ali...@icloud.com> wrote: >>> >>> That is a first. The general public now dictates what the disabled public >>> gets? Apple develops products for the mainstream market...and they also >>> have enabled these same products to be usable by the disabled. Can amy >>> other comppany claim that? >>> >>> We all can walk into any Apple store along with the sighted general public >>> and buy the same products they do and use the same products alongside them. >>> >>> And if we have an issue with our product, we can walk into any Apple store >>> or cal their toll free number and get the same assistance. >>> >>> Why should we expect any different treatment? Because we are blind? That, >>> IMO, is shortsightedness and perhaps even pompous. It certainly will not >>> get one very far. >>> >>> No one is glossing over anything. On the other hand, some are over the top >>> downright unreasonable. >>> >>> From The Believer. . . >>> . . . what if it were true? >>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com >>> >>>> On 10/19/2014 2:02 PM, Pamela Francis wrote: >>>> Hi, >>>> I'm normally not one to complain for the sake of complaining. I am a >>>> realist. I know that we as a market are a minority within Apple's customer >>>> base. I will give them credit where it's due. They did take the lead in >>>> accessibility. However, mainstream society has caught on to the fact that >>>> Apple products are accessible to blind people. That in itself is a double >>>> edge sword. None of us want to be put into a corner and told what is good >>>> for us by our cited peers. we want general society to except what we can >>>> use on its own merit showing them we can use products that they can use. >>>> there are still those who think that Apple products are simply all we can >>>> use. It's an all or nothing statement within the cited community as much >>>> as it is within our community. If that same statement is made with an >>>> aside a community, no one gripes. However if we say anything, we're >>>> complaining. Apple has become aware of what the cited community believes >>>> it's capable of doing for us, therefore they have >>> become lackadaisical forcing us to settle for whatever they throw at us, as >>> it has been within Windows another third-party screen readers. If I go in >>> to the grocery store and purchase what is supposed to be a complete >>> packaged product, get it home find out it isn't, take it back to the store; >>> am I complaining because I can't see? I don't think so. >>>> What I'm getting at by this rant is if there is a given feature supported >>>> by a given manufacturer that is designed for us or any other accessibility >>>> community, it should be fully featured and attended to with the same >>>> fervor as is done for the majority of its customer base. The fact that >>>> they maintain an accessibility line within itself on its face is a good >>>> thing. However, if those people truly have no say as to how things are >>>> done, are they there only for lipservice? I'm not willing to walk into a >>>> store, pay the same price for a product that my cited peers do and not >>>> have a right to complain about its functionality whether it's for me or >>>> for my cited peers. We as a blind community for too many years have been >>>> told we had to settle for second place. In many cases prior to the >>>> Internet we didn't have a means to communicate with people are issues, >>>> therefore we were forced to settle. That is no longer the case. To those >>>> who choose to regale the things that Apple does without being w >>> illing to admit apples faults, you are hurting all of us. Take that for >>> what it's worth. >>>> >>>> Pam Francis >>>> >>>> On Oct 19, 2014, at 2:23 PM, The Believer <ancient.ali...@icloud.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> I did not have a disastrous experience. I had just gotten a new Macbook >>>> with Mountain Lion and Mavericks came out shortly after that. And history >>>> repeats itself today with Yosemite. >>>> >>>> There were many complaints about Mavericks. Meanwhile, I worked with ML, >>>> trying to forget Windows. Finally I upgraded to Mavericks about a month >>>> ago! (smiles) >>>> >>>> I am still learning to use the Mac but it may not take me as long to move >>>> to Yosemite. Maybe a month? I will install iOS 8 at the same time but not >>>> intil both are better behaved. >>>> >>>> From The Believer. . . >>>> . . . what if it were true? >>>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com >>>> >>>>> On 10/19/2014 12:15 PM, Christine Grassman wrote: >>>>> I agree. While I would stop short of placing Apple on a pedestal, as no >>>>> one or company is worthy of that level of responsibility, I am realistic >>>>> about the varying preferences and needs of a customer base consisting of >>>>> millions of people, and I am steadfastly grateful for Apple and its >>>>> integral part in allowing me to complete the essential tasks of my job >>>>> and to enjoy much of what my sighted peers enjoy on a reasonably >>>>> equitable playing field out of the box. >>>>> I intend to write to Apple as someone who continues to appreciate its >>>>> devices and software a great deal, and urge it not to forget little me >>>>> and those like me. >>>>> I think any "absolutist" or all-or-nothing statements do no good. >>>>> I decided after a disastrous experience with Mavericks when it was first >>>>> released that I would never again update immediately after a first >>>>> release. I am anxious to avail myself of continuity, hand off, iBooks, >>>>> and answering calls on my MacBook, but I can wait. I know for a fact >>>>> that a VoiceOver lag will bother me in the extreme, and the very first >>>>> thing I did was read Applevis's article on the bugs, even though I had no >>>>> intention of updating right away. I am currently content, and I await >>>>> Yosemite's evolution. >>>>> Christine >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "MacVisionaries" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "MacVisionaries" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- Have a great day, Alex Hall mehg...@icloud.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
