Or, Possibly, some folks, who love their Apple products, might wake up & tell NFB to shut up & go away. I already have congress making decisions that don't reflect my values. I certainly don't need the NFB, an organization that I have never supported, representing itself as representing me.
CJ On Jul 13, 2014, at 8:50 PM, Robert C <gone.to.da...@gmail.com> wrote: > Ray, > No one is listening. They are hellbound to make their positions known and > they will defend their opinions to the end. In the end, this is nothing more > than a political debate and as such, will never reach a consensus until > everyone gets too damn tired to go on. Congress is afflicted with the exact > same sickness. > > This debate is pointless, no winners, only rhetoric that resolves not a > damn thing except waste everyone's time. > > Quote of the nanosecond . . . > What do you get when you cross a dog with a phone? > --A golden receiver. > Robert & Annie Yanni ke7nwn > E-mail- > gone.to.da...@gmail.com > > On 7/13/2014 8:30 PM, Ray Foret Jr wrote: >> David, your message does not help any. It represents the kind of NFB hatred >> of which I spoke last night. Your right, of course: still, I do not >> believe personally that there is any place for that here. >> >> >> Sincerely, >> the Constantly Barefooted Ray, Still a very happy Mac and iphone user! >> Sent from my Mac, the only computer with full accessibility for the blind >> built-in! >> >> On Jul 13, 2014, at 9:41 PM, David Chittenden <dchitten...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Yes, the NFB president really wants to become "in" with Apple so he can >>> attempt to influence Apple's policies around VoiceOver access to apps >>> written by third party developers. >>> >>> So, let's consider what would most likely happen if Apple should be stupid >>> enough to do what the NFB resolution is demanding, only from Apple. Apple >>> creates a policy in their App Store which says all apps must be VO >>> accessible. Considering that this will not be possible with the vast >>> majority of purely visual graphical games, game developers will leave and >>> go to the platforms which appreciate them. So, we have already alienated a >>> large majority of money-making apps. Kids, teens, and adults, all with >>> vision who enjoy those games will leave and go to where the fun games are. >>> This will significantly decrease iOS popularity, and as has been stated, >>> Google, with its not-so-strong focus on accessibility, and probably >>> Microsoft, with its non-accessibility in its mobile phones, will become >>> much more popular. >>> >>> Shall we also look at other app categories? I challenge you to find one app >>> category where developers will not vacate to either of the other two mobile >>> platforms where they would not need to focus on accessibility. Oh, and be >>> painfully honest and realistic here; not thinking the way you wish it would >>> be. >>> >>> At the time NFB went after Microsoft in the late 90's to convince MS not to >>> build a robust screen reader into Windows, Freedom Scientific made a >>> substantial financial contribution to NFB. I find such coincidences to be >>> quite interesting. Follow the money and many possibilities look fascinating. >>> >>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA >>> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com >>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288 >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On 14 Jul 2014, at 14:20, Marianne Denning <maria...@denningweb.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> According to what I read from the president, it is because Apple has >>>> gone above and beyond the requirements to make things accessible. He >>>> has nothing but praise for Apple and their response. There is no >>>> threat in the resolution that was passed. It is an effort to work >>>> with Apple. Microsoft and, to some degree, Google and Amazon just >>>> refuse to seriously work on accessibility. Where do you spend your >>>> efforts? I am also a TVI and when I am asked which tablet a school >>>> should purchase for a student my response, without hesitation, is >>>> Apple. There are still some apps that are used in schools that are >>>> not accessible so my students cannot fully participate in the >>>> classroom when this happens. NFB supports full inclusion in >>>> education, employment and life. >>>> >>>> NFB does not receive any money from Microsoft or Freedom Scientific to >>>> the best of my knowledge. Android is accessible and many blind people >>>> choose Android over Apple and say bad things about Apple. Android is >>>> not used as much in education and employment in the U.S. as Apple >>>> products. There has been a real push for schools to use Apple >>>> products because of Apple's commitment to accessibility. So, NFB is >>>> asking them to continue to improve. >>>> As I stated before, this was a resolution passed by the recent >>>> national convention held in Florida. I did not attend but if that is >>>> what the membership who were present believed was important then so be >>>> it. I will continue to use and support Apple and hope Apple continues >>>> their commitment to accessibility as we go forward. >>>>> On 7/13/14, Joanne Chua <shuang.an...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> It is still doesn't discount the fact that NFB is picking Apple from >>>>> the rest o the bunsh. If NFB is so interested in promoting >>>>> accessibility across all platform, why not Microsoft? Why not Google? >>>>> Why target purely at Apple? >>>>> >>>>> So, yes, is that a punishment for Apple from NFB because Apple has >>>>> been doing so much for the blind community? Or, is that because NFB >>>>> got some other deals with some other company, like Microsoft or >>>>> Freedom Scientific that may favouring them financially by >>>>> promoting/selling their products, so, is okay to target the single >>>>> company that they might not able to gain something from? >>>>> >>>>> If NFB is really looking at the interest of blind people, and their >>>>> family, won't it be more useful to target other company like Google, >>>>> with their less than desirable Androy platform than with Apple? >>>>> >>>>> My point still stand, why single out and targeting a company, when >>>>> there are numbers of company that doesn't do as well as Apple. >>>>> >>>>> Also, i think NFB have no rights to be the big man, to say, "oh, >>>>> because we do this, look now, we are doing the world hell lots of >>>>> favour for the blind." They have no rights, and shouldn't be givin >>>>> such rights as well. >>>>> >>>>> I'm sure VO happen is not because some NFB big guy went to make deals >>>>> with Apple, and make Apple have that sense of responsibility to have >>>>> VO available on their products. If NFB is that influencial in the >>>>> globally, the "world" will be much more accessible than what it is >>>>> now. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On 14/07/2014, Marianne Denning <maria...@denningweb.com> wrote: >>>>>> You do bring up an interesting point. I don't think your analogy is >>>>>> too good but Apple is doing a great job. I don't believe NFB is >>>>>> punishing Apple. According to what I read, NFB is trying to work with >>>>>> Apple to increase the number of accessible apps. One example is the >>>>>> Microsoft suite of products. There may be times when we need to or >>>>>> want to use a Microsoft product on the Mac but cannot since Microsoft >>>>>> doesn't have an accessible app. Apple puts the information out there >>>>>> on how to make apps voiceover friendly and many companies don't want >>>>>> to or don't understand the importance of voiceover accessibility. The >>>>>> president of NFB wants to work with Apple. He is not against Apple >>>>>> products in any way and is pleased with their level of commitment. >>>>>> Does that mean we need to be happy with what we have even though there >>>>>> are still many apps that are not accessible? If it improves >>>>>> accessibility to voiceover users in the U.S., it is accessible to >>>>>> voiceover users around the world. Please read the blog he posted on >>>>>> this subject. >>>>>> >>>>>> If you don't know anything about NFB or ACB, they are both >>>>>> organizations of blind people and their families. They want to >>>>>> promote independence for people who are blind and visually impaired. >>>>>> Both organizations take positions I don't agree with but when we work >>>>>> together as a group it improves independence for all blind and >>>>>> visually impaired people. I hope there are similar organizations in >>>>>> other countries. >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 7/13/14, Joanne Chua <shuang.an...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> So Erik, what you are saying is that, when your kid performing very, >>>>>>> very well at school, always gets 90 points in every exams, while >>>>>>> the rest is hobbing around 30 points, rarely pass the test, is okay >>>>>>> for the school principle to point your kid out in public, and punish >>>>>>> your kid by asking him to perform 100% better, and is okay for the >>>>>>> rest of the school kids staying behind on 30 points mark? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Or, we got double standard because its NFB, and because its Apple, so, >>>>>>> hey, who cares about other company, other organization, or even other >>>>>>> blind people that is not even in America, but could pretty well effect >>>>>>> by what so call big brother NFB does or doesn't in their policy making >>>>>>> process? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jees, if i'm one of the school kid, i'm very happy to stay on 30% >>>>>>> points mark, and not performing well, because, look what happen when >>>>>>> you are on 90%? you got name, you got shame, you got single it out. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I wonder, is this the pressure and the fear from other company, say >>>>>>> Freedom Scientific to NFB. When Apple products weren't accessible, >>>>>>> people rely on conventional screen reader, conventional braille note >>>>>>> taker to have a life. But now, because of Apple, thanks for Apple, >>>>>>> blind people have this sudden choice, not rely on an external screen >>>>>>> reader, and still able to have a life, a well inform life, a better >>>>>>> life than ever before in the history. Which also means, blind people >>>>>>> are more than likely to rely on their own, starting to do self >>>>>>> advocacy more than ever before, and left those organizations like NFB >>>>>>> behind in the future. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 14/07/2014, erik burggraaf <e...@erik-burggraaf.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> Naming a company does not necessarily imply targeting them. There are >>>>>>>> sound >>>>>>>> economic reasons for starting with apple. >>>>>>>> 1, they are the lear in the field of mobile accessibility right now. >>>>>>>> Lots >>>>>>>> of players, only one leader, ...apple, a p p l e. >>>>>>>> 2, Apple products are used daily in classrooms from at least grade two >>>>>>>> right >>>>>>>> through university. They are prominat in government. This isn't true >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> any other company. Blackberry has a lot of government market share but >>>>>>>> nothing in education, and almost nothing in employment. Android may be >>>>>>>> bigger in employment over all than apple, but androide started much >>>>>>>> later >>>>>>>> than apple and has only one truely comparable accessibility feature >>>>>>>> namely >>>>>>>> talkback A lot of disabled people who would get an android for work as >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> matter of course are getting apple because the accessibility suite is >>>>>>>> frankly more robust than that on android. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> OK, I think the discussions should include android. I also think they >>>>>>>> should include disability advocacy groups besides the blind. But I >>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>> see any one targeting anyone else here. Past experience >>>>>>>> not-with-standing, >>>>>>>> this idea that the NFB will somehow bombard apple into enforcing >>>>>>>> accessibility standards is ludacris. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Erik Burggraaf >>>>>>>> The great amazon gift card giveaway begins friday june eleventh at 5 >>>>>>>> pm! >>>>>>>> The more who donate, the more chances there will be to win! Click here >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> detales. >>>>>>>> http://www.fundme.com/en/projects/6287-Orientation-and-mobility-training-for-the-blind >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 2014-07-13, at 6:12 PM, David Chittenden <dchitten...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> When a resolution singles out one specific company by name, this means >>>>>>>>> that one specific company is being targeted! If the resolution was >>>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>> multiple companies being approached for increasing accessibility, it >>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>> have said so. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA >>>>>>>>> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com >>>>>>>>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288 >>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 14 Jul 2014, at 10:03, Marianne Denning <maria...@denningweb.com> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I also think it makes sense to push the one that is most accessible. >>>>>>>>>> Some of the others make it very clear they just don't care. Apple >>>>>>>>>> believes we are a market. Apple, like all other companies, is about >>>>>>>>>> making a profit. >>>>>>>>>> We give them our loyalty but ask them to do more. They have chosen >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> tightly control all apps by requiring us to get them from the app >>>>>>>>>> store so they need to work to be as accessible as possible. I >>>>>>>>>> believe >>>>>>>>>> more pressure needs to be put on other companies too so come up with >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> resolution to address that in whatever organization you are active >>>>>>>>>> with. We, as individuals, benefit from working together as a group. >>>>>>>>>> The viphone list is a great example of working together as a group >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> this group has gotten out good information to developers who create >>>>>>>>>> accessible apps. Many members of this group are members of a >>>>>>>>>> national >>>>>>>>>> organization too so work through that organization to influence >>>>>>>>>> companies. >>>>>>>>>>> On 7/13/14, erik burggraaf <e...@erik-burggraaf.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> I didn't read anything about targetting in the resolution. Show me >>>>>>>>>>> where >>>>>>>>>>> that line is please? >>>>>>>>>>> Apple has the broadest user base in the access technology market >>>>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>> comes to mobile. Apple is also well recognized in education, >>>>>>>>>>> government, >>>>>>>>>>> and employment sectors. Samsung is a great accessibility company. >>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>>>>> see why this resolution shouldn't apply to them except that they >>>>>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>> their own app distrobution model. Android is on the rise and has a >>>>>>>>>>> good >>>>>>>>>>> following and I think this conversation should be taken to them. In >>>>>>>>>>> fact, >>>>>>>>>>> so it is. Ensuring that apps offer a minimum level of accessibility >>>>>>>>>>> benefits all disability groups, not just ours. I think its a dialog >>>>>>>>>>> that a >>>>>>>>>>> lot of disability organizations should be having with apple and with >>>>>>>>>>> eachother. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I don't see apple being targetted here, and I don't see apple being >>>>>>>>>>> intimidated even if they did feel targetted. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Erik Burggraaf >>>>>>>>>>> The great amazon gift card giveaway begins friday june eleventh at 5 >>>>>>>>>>> pm! >>>>>>>>>>> The more who donate, the more chances there will be to win! Click >>>>>>>>>>> here >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> detales. >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.fundme.com/en/projects/6287-Orientation-and-mobility-training-for-the-blind >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 2014-07-13, at 3:44 PM, David Chittenden <dchitten...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe it is because the NFB is specifically targeting only the >>>>>>>>>>>> company >>>>>>>>>>>> that is doing the most for accessibility and ignoring the companies >>>>>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>>>>> should be targeting, such as Microsoft, Google, Sony, Panasonic, >>>>>>>>>>>> Cisco, >>>>>>>>>>>> Sharp, Samsung, and so forth. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> You do not encourage accessibility by targeting the most accessible >>>>>>>>>>>> company. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA >>>>>>>>>>>> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288 >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 14 Jul 2014, at 4:13, erik burggraaf <e...@erik-burggraaf.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Isn't the very point of the NFB to advocate? IE, make change for >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> better? IE, make companies like apple do things they wouldn't >>>>>>>>>>>>> normally >>>>>>>>>>>>> do by the use of resolution, discussion, policy positions and >>>>>>>>>>>>> demonstration of the user demand for such change? THe NFB seems >>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> me >>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> be doing what an advocacy organization does. I don't understand >>>>>>>>>>>>> why >>>>>>>>>>>>> any >>>>>>>>>>>>> one has a problem with this. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Erik Burggraaf >>>>>>>>>>>>> The great amazon gift card giveaway begins friday june eleventh at >>>>>>>>>>>>> 5 >>>>>>>>>>>>> pm! >>>>>>>>>>>>> The more who donate, the more chances there will be to win! Click >>>>>>>>>>>>> here >>>>>>>>>>>>> for detales. >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.fundme.com/en/projects/6287-Orientation-and-mobility-training-for-the-blind >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2014-07-12, at 11:36 PM, "Littlefield, Tyler" >>>>>>>>>>>>> <ty...@tysdomain.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm writing this from a sock-footed perspective, so take that for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's worth... >>>>>>>>>>>>>> None of this is "hate" directed at NFB. I don't agree with their >>>>>>>>>>>>>> philosophy. I don't believe that one organization should have the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> power >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to "resolve" to make a company like Apple do anything. This isn't >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> matter of ACB vs NFB or AFB or anything, it's a matter of what I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is right. I don't believe that an organization should speak for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> entire blind population. Further, I don't believe that any >>>>>>>>>>>>>> organization >>>>>>>>>>>>>> should be so arrogant as to award a company, then expect them to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> show >>>>>>>>>>>>>> up, as if it's an honor to receive that award. I don't understand >>>>>>>>>>>>>> how >>>>>>>>>>>>>> NFB thinks it has the right to force this on anyone, much less >>>>>>>>>>>>>> why >>>>>>>>>>>>>> they're only targetting apple for this. I also don't understand >>>>>>>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>>>>>>> they hope to accomplish. Sure there are unaccessible apps out >>>>>>>>>>>>>> there, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that number is dwindling. Advocacy and work with the developers >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> apps is generally plenty to make people want to make their >>>>>>>>>>>>>> applications >>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible. Not always, but enforcing accessibility guidelines >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> forcing an entire OS to conform to those guidelines when it would >>>>>>>>>>>>>> probably mean changing the user experience for everyone else is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> also >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ludicrous. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You brought up the 2009 article: why should we thank NFB for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> appologising for something they never should have published in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> first >>>>>>>>>>>>>> place? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not sure where this will lead. I think that work with apple >>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers and perhaps work under the hood to the native controls >>>>>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>>>> make more of a difference. Perhaps developers can choose to have >>>>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>>>> checks enabled, and these checks can insure that specific labels >>>>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>>> set, etc etc which would generally make the app more accessible. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> This >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> also up to the developer, but it would greatly help I think in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> targetting exactly what needs to be done. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/12/2014 11:15 PM, Ray Foret Jr wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Okay. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am changing the subject because I think it's high time I said >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something. I well remember how many Mac users strongly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> criticized >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NFB for their June 2009 Braille Monitor article on Voice Over. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> criticism was fully justified: let there be no doubt about >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the other hand, how many Mac users gave the NFB credit for the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> retraction printed in the December 2009 Monitor article? Not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seem to recall. Look, it's your business whether or not you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hate >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NFB and I cannot change your minds about that. I'm not even >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> try. But, frankly, I think it's very shallow minded to have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kind >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of hatred controlling the issue when what we need to do is have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> balanced and mature conversation. Hate us all you want: but, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remember, there are NFB members who use Macs and iPHones and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple products too. For what it may be worth, I do not hate >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the ACB. Why should I? They've never done anything to me to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> merit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such hatred. I would add this. My own state, Louisiana, voted >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> against >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the resolution at the convention this year. This somewhat took >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> me >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> surprise. I did not expect that to happen, but it did. Look, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are NFB members and who use our Apple products love them as much >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do. I know that, for myself, I will never touch windows again. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sooner be without a computer totally than to do that. I do not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is at all reasonable to ask the current generation to bear >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hatreds of the past. 1961 is long gone: as the hatred of those >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> days >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should also be. Condemn what I say if you wish: (That's your >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> right.): >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but, just bear in mind that the only one being effected by your >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hatred >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of people like me is yourself. I don't hate you. You see, it's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> frightfully simple. Those who hate you don't win unless you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hate >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Have what ever feelings you choose towards me and what I say: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bear in mind that we really need to rise above such things and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> continue >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to help each other with Apple product issues. After all, is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the principal purpose of this list? When I first joined, I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> received >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> much good help from the members of this list. I would hate to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> depart >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from this list over feelings of bitterness and hatred with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> respect >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> either to the ACB or NFB. No. I cannot change how you feel: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> frankly, I'd prefer a gentler tone. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Constantly Barefooted Ray, Still a very happy Mac and iphone >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> user! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Mac, the only computer with full accessibility for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blind built-in! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 12, 2014, at 9:57 PM, David Chittenden >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <dchitten...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is probably more like, NFB attempted to dialogue with Apple. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rebuffed NFB, like Apple rebuffs any organization doing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> similar. NFB passes a resolution which they can then take back >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple and say, See, the blind are behind us because we are the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and this resolution was passed at our convention, so you really >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to dialogue with us. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What will be the result? Apple will again rebuff NFB, just like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rebuffs any organization attempting such an approach. NFB may >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> well >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> become in-sensed again and we will see some form of tantrum >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NFB. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As I recall, when Apple did not send an official representative >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NFB >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> National Convention to receive the awards NFB gave Apple, a few >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> months >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> later articles appeared in the Braille Monitor proving how >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> horrible >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> VoiceOver was on the Mac. Yes, I suspect NFB will do something >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> idiotic this time when their scheme does not work yet again. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 13 Jul 2014, at 13:57, Tristan <theblinddj...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I feel the need to point out this article: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://nfb.org/blog/vonb-blog/comments-apple-and-nfb-resolution-2014-12 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This gives me a largely new prospective on this; I was really >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inclined >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to agree with everyone's opinions on this at first, but it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> honestly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> looks like they're trying to work with, and not threaten Apple >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> core of the resolution. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If this link has been posted prior, I apologize, but thought >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> share. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While I do think it's an unnecessary step, it does not look >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> slap in the face to apple nor a step backwards. It's something >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> personally wouldn't care about and probably wouldn't pay >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> attention >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because I'm comfortable with the way apps are handled on both >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mac >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> iOS. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/12/14, Karen Lewellen <klewel...@shellworld.net> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I cannot imagine it being about anything else but nfb getting >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> money >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exchange for building in limitations. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Granted I make no secret of choosing my own dictionary. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But why on earth in the 21st century is anyone still >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worshiping >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the nfb >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> altar anyway? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So they pass a resolution...and? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The only reason apple feels they must entertain them, is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> customers do not indicate they have minds imaginations and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interests >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their own. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a bunch of people gave this organization power, those same >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who BTW >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have within themselves the ability to write their own >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dictionaries >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindness and anything else, can tell the nfb they have out >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> grown >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need for such a body anymore. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I simply do not understand why one conformity is exchanged >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> another, one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> person's ideas of limitations exchanged for those the nfb >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> create >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their mindset. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kare >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 12 Jul 2014, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Karen: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I fully agree. It really does feel like we're slapping Apple >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> face, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> forcing them to conform. I really really hope this doesn't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to create a huge mess and totally redefine apps. Not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everything is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible but that really is fine with me; usually I can >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> app that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is. It's what happens when you use anything, really. My >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thoughts >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mainly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> money based: how much money will NFB get for consulting for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this, and secondly how is this trash going to redefine apps >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> iPhone? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's not going to be all that hard for NFB to use their >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> power >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> force >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> things >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> into IOS/apps that don't need to be there, force things out, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/12/2014 9:25 PM, Karen Lewellen wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me see if I understand this. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple who has built in innovation on its own must discuss >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nfb >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to now limit that innovation to fit the nfb's one size fits >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> definition >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of blindness? as in all blind people are interchangeable, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nfb >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the only source to tell you how to find a plug and play >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> person >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which you measure what works for them...all 400 plus >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> million >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wonder how much money they plan on extorting for this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dialog? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not only should it be a blanket resolution, BTW android >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> phones >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> most popular in use now according to annual surveys, but >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dialog >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should involve many organizations, and a group of apple >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> customers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not members of a consumer organization whatsoever. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The very suggestion that a single body is in a position to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> speak >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> every >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> child born of women who happens to have the label blind >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> attached >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a stereotypes that really needs to end. otherwise the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> individuality >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that is the rich experience of redefining blindness is not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exist >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the millions who need not buy the nfb line to live >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> freely >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inclusively. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why does the nfb not spend its energy training software >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their one size fits all blindness box? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Many companies besides Apple would get the benefits that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just my take, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Karen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 12 Jul 2014, Pamela Francis wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I personally am not in favor of this resolution; not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want accessibility. Apple took the lead in making its >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> products >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible without government or organizational >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> intervention. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Microsoft, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on the other hand, allowed third-party vendors to do its >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> within >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessibility. Google, though it has come along way, still >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to adhere to its own standards unless it is pressed. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If there was a resolution to be had, it should've been a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blanket >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> resolution for all companies dealing with accessibility. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Picking >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple, is as if we as a blind community are slapping it in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> face >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> given that it has continued its efforts to remain >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understand the need for utilitarian apps such as maps, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> maps, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> notes, lists, etc. to remain accessible as they are a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> necessary >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> function >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in normal life. However, just to use as an example I don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> necessarily >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need Angry Birds to be accessible for my benefit nor do I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> threatened to be kicked from the app store due to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inaccessibility >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the sake of millions of people who enjoy it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As we continue to strive for accessibility in all areas, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a bully to the company that went out of its way to make >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> products >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible from the beginning. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We also do not need to be put into a societal box allowing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> electronics >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> manufacturers, appliance manufacturers, and the general >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> public >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe that all we are capable of is operating an iPhone. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cusp of choice. We have fought for choice for a long >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> type >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a resolution makes us look militant and ungrateful. What >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fair for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one company is fair for all. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pam Francis >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 12, 2014, at 9:28 AM, Terje Strømberg >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <terjestrmb...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The NFB Resolution is very important for all blind and low >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vision >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> over the world. We all want accessible digital future. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A link to a comment from the president in NFB: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://nfb.org/blog/vonb-blog/comments-apple-and-nfb-resolution-2014-12 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Take care >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> send >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> send >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Take care, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ty >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://tds-solutions.net >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fool; he >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dares not reason is a slave. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Groups >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> send an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Groups >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> send an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> send >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> send >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Take care, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ty >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://tds-solutions.net >>>>>>>>>>>>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> fool; >>>>>>>>>>>>>> he >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that dares not reason is a slave. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> send >>>>>>>>>>>>>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>>>>>> Groups >>>>>>>>>>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>>>>>> send >>>>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>>>>> Groups >>>>>>>>>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>>>>> send >>>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>>>> Groups >>>>>>>>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>>>> send >>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Marianne Denning, TVI, MA >>>>>>>>>> Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired >>>>>>>>>> (513) 607-6053 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>>> Groups >>>>>>>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>>> send >>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>> Groups >>>>>>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups >>>>>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups >>>>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>>> an >>>>>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Marianne Denning, TVI, MA >>>>>> Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired >>>>>> (513) 607-6053 >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Marianne Denning, TVI, MA >>>> Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired >>>> (513) 607-6053 >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. 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