David, I think you're exactly on target. NFB set blind-tech back, @ least 10-years, by moving to block the addition of a robust screen reader into Window's products after Non-Freedom Scientific's considerable contribution to the organization. Now, between development's like Apple's Voiceover, NVDA's shareware approach, & GW Micro's bow to the inevitable by offering a free copy to purchasers of MS Office; I believe that the NFB is sensing a shift in the winds that they don't like. The sheep are supposed to be led by the NFB & they are supposed to cooperate in their own sheering by vendors who grow fat with over-priced products that only government agencies can afford to buy for their rehab clients. Wait! some of the sheep are breaking away! They're jumping the fence & purchasing machines with built-in accessibility with their own money! Oh no! The purchases aren't being made from "approved" companies. Government agencies aren't involved in the purchases! Oh God, the blind humanities!
Seriously, when are some of these people going to wakeup? CJ On Jul 13, 2014, at 8:25 PM, David Chittenden <dchitten...@gmail.com> wrote: > What an interesting way of completely avoiding the very real points I raise. > > My answer is: follow the money. You will find the answers there. > > In this particular case, I find it very coincidental that Kirtus Chung wrote > an article in June which very nicely attacked iOS accessibility. There was > quite a large amount of email challenging his assertions. Within a month, NFB > gets a resolution passed that appears to continue the concept. Again, very > coincidental, and extremely reflective of how the NFB operated 15 years ago > when I was a very active member. Back then, financial dealings and > contributions painted a very interesting picture of the NFB's negative stance > on described video service. It looks like more of the same from the NFB. > > That said, my points are specifically about this particular resolution and > the real harm it could cause which some appear not to wish to consider. > > David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA > Email: dchitten...@gmail.com > Mobile: +64 21 2288 288 > Sent from my iPhone > >> On 14 Jul 2014, at 15:01, Marianne Denning <maria...@denningweb.com> wrote: >> >> David, I am not sure why you hate NFB so much. I believe both NFB and >> ACB have accomplished good things and there are things I do not agree >> with. NFB now has a new president and instead of immediately >> condemning him why not see how things work out? I believe all apps >> can be accessible. Now may not be the right time but so much can >> change in the future. Why not find areas where you have common ground >> with NFB and support those areas. As I said before, I have read many >> complaints about accessible apps and programs that are no longer >> accessible once they are updated. This is not only true for Apple. >> That may be an area where Apple, NFB and you can agree. NFB is not >> making any threats toward Apple. >> >>> On 7/13/14, David Chittenden <dchitten...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> Yes, the NFB president really wants to become "in" with Apple so he can >>> attempt to influence Apple's policies around VoiceOver access to apps >>> written by third party developers. >>> >>> So, let's consider what would most likely happen if Apple should be stupid >>> enough to do what the NFB resolution is demanding, only from Apple. Apple >>> creates a policy in their App Store which says all apps must be VO >>> accessible. Considering that this will not be possible with the vast >>> majority of purely visual graphical games, game developers will leave and go >>> to the platforms which appreciate them. So, we have already alienated a >>> large majority of money-making apps. Kids, teens, and adults, all with >>> vision who enjoy those games will leave and go to where the fun games are. >>> This will significantly decrease iOS popularity, and as has been stated, >>> Google, with its not-so-strong focus on accessibility, and probably >>> Microsoft, with its non-accessibility in its mobile phones, will become much >>> more popular. >>> >>> Shall we also look at other app categories? I challenge you to find one app >>> category where developers will not vacate to either of the other two mobile >>> platforms where they would not need to focus on accessibility. Oh, and be >>> painfully honest and realistic here; not thinking the way you wish it would >>> be. >>> >>> At the time NFB went after Microsoft in the late 90's to convince MS not to >>> build a robust screen reader into Windows, Freedom Scientific made a >>> substantial financial contribution to NFB. I find such coincidences to be >>> quite interesting. Follow the money and many possibilities look fascinating. >>> >>> >>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA >>> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com >>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288 >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On 14 Jul 2014, at 14:20, Marianne Denning <maria...@denningweb.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> According to what I read from the president, it is because Apple has >>>> gone above and beyond the requirements to make things accessible. He >>>> has nothing but praise for Apple and their response. There is no >>>> threat in the resolution that was passed. It is an effort to work >>>> with Apple. Microsoft and, to some degree, Google and Amazon just >>>> refuse to seriously work on accessibility. Where do you spend your >>>> efforts? I am also a TVI and when I am asked which tablet a school >>>> should purchase for a student my response, without hesitation, is >>>> Apple. There are still some apps that are used in schools that are >>>> not accessible so my students cannot fully participate in the >>>> classroom when this happens. NFB supports full inclusion in >>>> education, employment and life. >>>> >>>> NFB does not receive any money from Microsoft or Freedom Scientific to >>>> the best of my knowledge. Android is accessible and many blind people >>>> choose Android over Apple and say bad things about Apple. Android is >>>> not used as much in education and employment in the U.S. as Apple >>>> products. There has been a real push for schools to use Apple >>>> products because of Apple's commitment to accessibility. So, NFB is >>>> asking them to continue to improve. >>>> As I stated before, this was a resolution passed by the recent >>>> national convention held in Florida. I did not attend but if that is >>>> what the membership who were present believed was important then so be >>>> it. I will continue to use and support Apple and hope Apple continues >>>> their commitment to accessibility as we go forward. >>>>> On 7/13/14, Joanne Chua <shuang.an...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> It is still doesn't discount the fact that NFB is picking Apple from >>>>> the rest o the bunsh. If NFB is so interested in promoting >>>>> accessibility across all platform, why not Microsoft? Why not Google? >>>>> Why target purely at Apple? >>>>> >>>>> So, yes, is that a punishment for Apple from NFB because Apple has >>>>> been doing so much for the blind community? Or, is that because NFB >>>>> got some other deals with some other company, like Microsoft or >>>>> Freedom Scientific that may favouring them financially by >>>>> promoting/selling their products, so, is okay to target the single >>>>> company that they might not able to gain something from? >>>>> >>>>> If NFB is really looking at the interest of blind people, and their >>>>> family, won't it be more useful to target other company like Google, >>>>> with their less than desirable Androy platform than with Apple? >>>>> >>>>> My point still stand, why single out and targeting a company, when >>>>> there are numbers of company that doesn't do as well as Apple. >>>>> >>>>> Also, i think NFB have no rights to be the big man, to say, "oh, >>>>> because we do this, look now, we are doing the world hell lots of >>>>> favour for the blind." They have no rights, and shouldn't be givin >>>>> such rights as well. >>>>> >>>>> I'm sure VO happen is not because some NFB big guy went to make deals >>>>> with Apple, and make Apple have that sense of responsibility to have >>>>> VO available on their products. If NFB is that influencial in the >>>>> globally, the "world" will be much more accessible than what it is >>>>> now. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On 14/07/2014, Marianne Denning <maria...@denningweb.com> wrote: >>>>>> You do bring up an interesting point. I don't think your analogy is >>>>>> too good but Apple is doing a great job. I don't believe NFB is >>>>>> punishing Apple. According to what I read, NFB is trying to work with >>>>>> Apple to increase the number of accessible apps. One example is the >>>>>> Microsoft suite of products. There may be times when we need to or >>>>>> want to use a Microsoft product on the Mac but cannot since Microsoft >>>>>> doesn't have an accessible app. Apple puts the information out there >>>>>> on how to make apps voiceover friendly and many companies don't want >>>>>> to or don't understand the importance of voiceover accessibility. The >>>>>> president of NFB wants to work with Apple. He is not against Apple >>>>>> products in any way and is pleased with their level of commitment. >>>>>> Does that mean we need to be happy with what we have even though there >>>>>> are still many apps that are not accessible? If it improves >>>>>> accessibility to voiceover users in the U.S., it is accessible to >>>>>> voiceover users around the world. Please read the blog he posted on >>>>>> this subject. >>>>>> >>>>>> If you don't know anything about NFB or ACB, they are both >>>>>> organizations of blind people and their families. They want to >>>>>> promote independence for people who are blind and visually impaired. >>>>>> Both organizations take positions I don't agree with but when we work >>>>>> together as a group it improves independence for all blind and >>>>>> visually impaired people. I hope there are similar organizations in >>>>>> other countries. >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 7/13/14, Joanne Chua <shuang.an...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> So Erik, what you are saying is that, when your kid performing very, >>>>>>> very well at school, always gets 90 points in every exams, while >>>>>>> the rest is hobbing around 30 points, rarely pass the test, is okay >>>>>>> for the school principle to point your kid out in public, and punish >>>>>>> your kid by asking him to perform 100% better, and is okay for the >>>>>>> rest of the school kids staying behind on 30 points mark? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Or, we got double standard because its NFB, and because its Apple, so, >>>>>>> hey, who cares about other company, other organization, or even other >>>>>>> blind people that is not even in America, but could pretty well effect >>>>>>> by what so call big brother NFB does or doesn't in their policy making >>>>>>> process? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jees, if i'm one of the school kid, i'm very happy to stay on 30% >>>>>>> points mark, and not performing well, because, look what happen when >>>>>>> you are on 90%? you got name, you got shame, you got single it out. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I wonder, is this the pressure and the fear from other company, say >>>>>>> Freedom Scientific to NFB. When Apple products weren't accessible, >>>>>>> people rely on conventional screen reader, conventional braille note >>>>>>> taker to have a life. But now, because of Apple, thanks for Apple, >>>>>>> blind people have this sudden choice, not rely on an external screen >>>>>>> reader, and still able to have a life, a well inform life, a better >>>>>>> life than ever before in the history. Which also means, blind people >>>>>>> are more than likely to rely on their own, starting to do self >>>>>>> advocacy more than ever before, and left those organizations like NFB >>>>>>> behind in the future. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 14/07/2014, erik burggraaf <e...@erik-burggraaf.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> Naming a company does not necessarily imply targeting them. There >>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>> sound >>>>>>>> economic reasons for starting with apple. >>>>>>>> 1, they are the lear in the field of mobile accessibility right now. >>>>>>>> Lots >>>>>>>> of players, only one leader, ...apple, a p p l e. >>>>>>>> 2, Apple products are used daily in classrooms from at least grade >>>>>>>> two >>>>>>>> right >>>>>>>> through university. They are prominat in government. This isn't >>>>>>>> true >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> any other company. Blackberry has a lot of government market share >>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>> nothing in education, and almost nothing in employment. Android may >>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>> bigger in employment over all than apple, but androide started much >>>>>>>> later >>>>>>>> than apple and has only one truely comparable accessibility feature >>>>>>>> namely >>>>>>>> talkback A lot of disabled people who would get an android for work >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> matter of course are getting apple because the accessibility suite is >>>>>>>> frankly more robust than that on android. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> OK, I think the discussions should include android. I also think >>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>> should include disability advocacy groups besides the blind. But I >>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>> see any one targeting anyone else here. Past experience >>>>>>>> not-with-standing, >>>>>>>> this idea that the NFB will somehow bombard apple into enforcing >>>>>>>> accessibility standards is ludacris. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Erik Burggraaf >>>>>>>> The great amazon gift card giveaway begins friday june eleventh at 5 >>>>>>>> pm! >>>>>>>> The more who donate, the more chances there will be to win! Click >>>>>>>> here >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> detales. >>>>>>>> http://www.fundme.com/en/projects/6287-Orientation-and-mobility-training-for-the-blind >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 2014-07-13, at 6:12 PM, David Chittenden <dchitten...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> When a resolution singles out one specific company by name, this >>>>>>>>> means >>>>>>>>> that one specific company is being targeted! If the resolution was >>>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>> multiple companies being approached for increasing accessibility, it >>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>> have said so. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA >>>>>>>>> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com >>>>>>>>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288 >>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 14 Jul 2014, at 10:03, Marianne Denning >>>>>>>>>> <maria...@denningweb.com> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I also think it makes sense to push the one that is most >>>>>>>>>> accessible. >>>>>>>>>> Some of the others make it very clear they just don't care. Apple >>>>>>>>>> believes we are a market. Apple, like all other companies, is >>>>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>>> making a profit. >>>>>>>>>> We give them our loyalty but ask them to do more. They have chosen >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> tightly control all apps by requiring us to get them from the app >>>>>>>>>> store so they need to work to be as accessible as possible. I >>>>>>>>>> believe >>>>>>>>>> more pressure needs to be put on other companies too so come up >>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> resolution to address that in whatever organization you are active >>>>>>>>>> with. We, as individuals, benefit from working together as a group. >>>>>>>>>> The viphone list is a great example of working together as a group >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> this group has gotten out good information to developers who create >>>>>>>>>> accessible apps. Many members of this group are members of a >>>>>>>>>> national >>>>>>>>>> organization too so work through that organization to influence >>>>>>>>>> companies. >>>>>>>>>>> On 7/13/14, erik burggraaf <e...@erik-burggraaf.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> I didn't read anything about targetting in the resolution. Show >>>>>>>>>>> me >>>>>>>>>>> where >>>>>>>>>>> that line is please? >>>>>>>>>>> Apple has the broadest user base in the access technology market >>>>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>> comes to mobile. Apple is also well recognized in education, >>>>>>>>>>> government, >>>>>>>>>>> and employment sectors. Samsung is a great accessibility company. >>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>>>>> see why this resolution shouldn't apply to them except that they >>>>>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>> their own app distrobution model. Android is on the rise and has >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> good >>>>>>>>>>> following and I think this conversation should be taken to them. >>>>>>>>>>> In >>>>>>>>>>> fact, >>>>>>>>>>> so it is. Ensuring that apps offer a minimum level of >>>>>>>>>>> accessibility >>>>>>>>>>> benefits all disability groups, not just ours. I think its a >>>>>>>>>>> dialog >>>>>>>>>>> that a >>>>>>>>>>> lot of disability organizations should be having with apple and >>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>> eachother. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I don't see apple being targetted here, and I don't see apple >>>>>>>>>>> being >>>>>>>>>>> intimidated even if they did feel targetted. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Erik Burggraaf >>>>>>>>>>> The great amazon gift card giveaway begins friday june eleventh at >>>>>>>>>>> 5 >>>>>>>>>>> pm! >>>>>>>>>>> The more who donate, the more chances there will be to win! Click >>>>>>>>>>> here >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> detales. >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.fundme.com/en/projects/6287-Orientation-and-mobility-training-for-the-blind >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 2014-07-13, at 3:44 PM, David Chittenden >>>>>>>>>>>> <dchitten...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe it is because the NFB is specifically targeting only the >>>>>>>>>>>> company >>>>>>>>>>>> that is doing the most for accessibility and ignoring the >>>>>>>>>>>> companies >>>>>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>>>>> should be targeting, such as Microsoft, Google, Sony, Panasonic, >>>>>>>>>>>> Cisco, >>>>>>>>>>>> Sharp, Samsung, and so forth. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> You do not encourage accessibility by targeting the most >>>>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>>>> company. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA >>>>>>>>>>>> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288 >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 14 Jul 2014, at 4:13, erik burggraaf >>>>>>>>>>>>> <e...@erik-burggraaf.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Isn't the very point of the NFB to advocate? IE, make change >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> better? IE, make companies like apple do things they wouldn't >>>>>>>>>>>>> normally >>>>>>>>>>>>> do by the use of resolution, discussion, policy positions and >>>>>>>>>>>>> demonstration of the user demand for such change? THe NFB seems >>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> me >>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> be doing what an advocacy organization does. I don't understand >>>>>>>>>>>>> why >>>>>>>>>>>>> any >>>>>>>>>>>>> one has a problem with this. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Erik Burggraaf >>>>>>>>>>>>> The great amazon gift card giveaway begins friday june eleventh >>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>> 5 >>>>>>>>>>>>> pm! >>>>>>>>>>>>> The more who donate, the more chances there will be to win! >>>>>>>>>>>>> Click >>>>>>>>>>>>> here >>>>>>>>>>>>> for detales. >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.fundme.com/en/projects/6287-Orientation-and-mobility-training-for-the-blind >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2014-07-12, at 11:36 PM, "Littlefield, Tyler" >>>>>>>>>>>>> <ty...@tysdomain.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm writing this from a sock-footed perspective, so take that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's worth... >>>>>>>>>>>>>> None of this is "hate" directed at NFB. I don't agree with >>>>>>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>>>> philosophy. I don't believe that one organization should have >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> power >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to "resolve" to make a company like Apple do anything. This >>>>>>>>>>>>>> isn't >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> matter of ACB vs NFB or AFB or anything, it's a matter of what >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is right. I don't believe that an organization should speak for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> entire blind population. Further, I don't believe that any >>>>>>>>>>>>>> organization >>>>>>>>>>>>>> should be so arrogant as to award a company, then expect them >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> show >>>>>>>>>>>>>> up, as if it's an honor to receive that award. I don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>> understand >>>>>>>>>>>>>> how >>>>>>>>>>>>>> NFB thinks it has the right to force this on anyone, much less >>>>>>>>>>>>>> why >>>>>>>>>>>>>> they're only targetting apple for this. I also don't understand >>>>>>>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>>>>>>> they hope to accomplish. Sure there are unaccessible apps out >>>>>>>>>>>>>> there, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that number is dwindling. Advocacy and work with the developers >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> apps is generally plenty to make people want to make their >>>>>>>>>>>>>> applications >>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible. Not always, but enforcing accessibility guidelines >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> forcing an entire OS to conform to those guidelines when it >>>>>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>>>> probably mean changing the user experience for everyone else is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> also >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ludicrous. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You brought up the 2009 article: why should we thank NFB for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> appologising for something they never should have published in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> first >>>>>>>>>>>>>> place? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not sure where this will lead. I think that work with apple >>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers and perhaps work under the hood to the native >>>>>>>>>>>>>> controls >>>>>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>>>> make more of a difference. Perhaps developers can choose to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>>>> checks enabled, and these checks can insure that specific >>>>>>>>>>>>>> labels >>>>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>>> set, etc etc which would generally make the app more >>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> This >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> also up to the developer, but it would greatly help I think in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> targetting exactly what needs to be done. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/12/2014 11:15 PM, Ray Foret Jr wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Okay. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am changing the subject because I think it's high time I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> said >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something. I well remember how many Mac users strongly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> criticized >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NFB for their June 2009 Braille Monitor article on Voice Over. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> criticism was fully justified: let there be no doubt about >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the other hand, how many Mac users gave the NFB credit for the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> retraction printed in the December 2009 Monitor article? Not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seem to recall. Look, it's your business whether or not you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hate >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NFB and I cannot change your minds about that. I'm not even >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> try. But, frankly, I think it's very shallow minded to have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kind >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of hatred controlling the issue when what we need to do is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> balanced and mature conversation. Hate us all you want: but, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remember, there are NFB members who use Macs and iPHones and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple products too. For what it may be worth, I do not hate >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the ACB. Why should I? They've never done anything to me to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> merit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such hatred. I would add this. My own state, Louisiana, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> voted >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> against >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the resolution at the convention this year. This somewhat >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> took >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> me >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> surprise. I did not expect that to happen, but it did. Look, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are NFB members and who use our Apple products love them as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do. I know that, for myself, I will never touch windows >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> again. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sooner be without a computer totally than to do that. I do >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is at all reasonable to ask the current generation to bear >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hatreds of the past. 1961 is long gone: as the hatred of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> days >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should also be. Condemn what I say if you wish: (That's your >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> right.): >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but, just bear in mind that the only one being effected by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hatred >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of people like me is yourself. I don't hate you. You see, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> frightfully simple. Those who hate you don't win unless you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hate >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Have what ever feelings you choose towards me and what I say: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bear in mind that we really need to rise above such things and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> continue >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to help each other with Apple product issues. After all, is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the principal purpose of this list? When I first joined, I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> received >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> much good help from the members of this list. I would hate to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> depart >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from this list over feelings of bitterness and hatred with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> respect >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> either to the ACB or NFB. No. I cannot change how you feel: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> frankly, I'd prefer a gentler tone. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Constantly Barefooted Ray, Still a very happy Mac and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> iphone >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> user! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Mac, the only computer with full accessibility >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blind built-in! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 12, 2014, at 9:57 PM, David Chittenden >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <dchitten...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is probably more like, NFB attempted to dialogue with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rebuffed NFB, like Apple rebuffs any organization doing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> similar. NFB passes a resolution which they can then take >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> back >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple and say, See, the blind are behind us because we are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and this resolution was passed at our convention, so you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> really >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to dialogue with us. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What will be the result? Apple will again rebuff NFB, just >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rebuffs any organization attempting such an approach. NFB may >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> well >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> become in-sensed again and we will see some form of tantrum >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NFB. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As I recall, when Apple did not send an official >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> representative >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NFB >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> National Convention to receive the awards NFB gave Apple, a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> few >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> months >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> later articles appeared in the Braille Monitor proving how >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> horrible >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> VoiceOver was on the Mac. Yes, I suspect NFB will do >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> idiotic this time when their scheme does not work yet again. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 13 Jul 2014, at 13:57, Tristan <theblinddj...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I feel the need to point out this article: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://nfb.org/blog/vonb-blog/comments-apple-and-nfb-resolution-2014-12 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This gives me a largely new prospective on this; I was >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> really >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inclined >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to agree with everyone's opinions on this at first, but it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> honestly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> looks like they're trying to work with, and not threaten >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> core of the resolution. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If this link has been posted prior, I apologize, but thought >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> share. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While I do think it's an unnecessary step, it does not look >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> slap in the face to apple nor a step backwards. It's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> personally wouldn't care about and probably wouldn't pay >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> attention >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because I'm comfortable with the way apps are handled on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> both >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mac >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> iOS. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/12/14, Karen Lewellen <klewel...@shellworld.net> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I cannot imagine it being about anything else but nfb >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> getting >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> money >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exchange for building in limitations. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Granted I make no secret of choosing my own dictionary. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But why on earth in the 21st century is anyone still >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worshiping >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the nfb >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> altar anyway? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So they pass a resolution...and? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The only reason apple feels they must entertain them, is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> customers do not indicate they have minds imaginations and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interests >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their own. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a bunch of people gave this organization power, those same >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who BTW >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have within themselves the ability to write their own >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dictionaries >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindness and anything else, can tell the nfb they have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> grown >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need for such a body anymore. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I simply do not understand why one conformity is exchanged >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> another, one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> person's ideas of limitations exchanged for those the nfb >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> create >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their mindset. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kare >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 12 Jul 2014, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Karen: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I fully agree. It really does feel like we're slapping >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> face, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> forcing them to conform. I really really hope this doesn't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to create a huge mess and totally redefine apps. Not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everything is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible but that really is fine with me; usually I can >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> app that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is. It's what happens when you use anything, really. My >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thoughts >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mainly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> money based: how much money will NFB get for consulting >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this, and secondly how is this trash going to redefine >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> apps >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> iPhone? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's not going to be all that hard for NFB to use their >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> power >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> force >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> things >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> into IOS/apps that don't need to be there, force things >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/12/2014 9:25 PM, Karen Lewellen wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me see if I understand this. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple who has built in innovation on its own must discuss >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nfb >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to now limit that innovation to fit the nfb's one size >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fits >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> definition >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of blindness? as in all blind people are interchangeable, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nfb >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the only source to tell you how to find a plug and play >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> person >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which you measure what works for them...all 400 plus >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> million >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wonder how much money they plan on extorting for this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dialog? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not only should it be a blanket resolution, BTW android >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> phones >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> most popular in use now according to annual surveys, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dialog >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should involve many organizations, and a group of apple >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> customers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not members of a consumer organization whatsoever. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The very suggestion that a single body is in a position >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> speak >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> every >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> child born of women who happens to have the label blind >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> attached >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a stereotypes that really needs to end. otherwise the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> individuality >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that is the rich experience of redefining blindness is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exist >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the millions who need not buy the nfb line to live >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> freely >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inclusively. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why does the nfb not spend its energy training software >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their one size fits all blindness box? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Many companies besides Apple would get the benefits that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just my take, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Karen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 12 Jul 2014, Pamela Francis wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I personally am not in favor of this resolution; not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want accessibility. Apple took the lead in making its >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> products >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible without government or organizational >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> intervention. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Microsoft, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on the other hand, allowed third-party vendors to do its >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> within >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessibility. Google, though it has come along way, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to adhere to its own standards unless it is pressed. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If there was a resolution to be had, it should've been a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blanket >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> resolution for all companies dealing with accessibility. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Picking >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple, is as if we as a blind community are slapping it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> face >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> given that it has continued its efforts to remain >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understand the need for utilitarian apps such as maps, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> maps, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> notes, lists, etc. to remain accessible as they are a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> necessary >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> function >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in normal life. However, just to use as an example I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> necessarily >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need Angry Birds to be accessible for my benefit nor do >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> threatened to be kicked from the app store due to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inaccessibility >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the sake of millions of people who enjoy it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As we continue to strive for accessibility in all areas, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a bully to the company that went out of its way to make >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> products >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible from the beginning. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We also do not need to be put into a societal box >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> allowing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> electronics >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> manufacturers, appliance manufacturers, and the general >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> public >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe that all we are capable of is operating an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> iPhone. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cusp of choice. We have fought for choice for a long >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> type >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a resolution makes us look militant and ungrateful. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fair for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one company is fair for all. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pam Francis >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 12, 2014, at 9:28 AM, Terje Strømberg >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <terjestrmb...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The NFB Resolution is very important for all blind and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> low >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vision >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> over the world. We all want accessible digital future. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A link to a comment from the president in NFB: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://nfb.org/blog/vonb-blog/comments-apple-and-nfb-resolution-2014-12 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Take care >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> send >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> send >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Take care, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ty >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://tds-solutions.net >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fool; he >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dares not reason is a slave. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Groups >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> send an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Groups >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> send an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you 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To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> send >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Take care, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ty >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://tds-solutions.net >>>>>>>>>>>>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> fool; >>>>>>>>>>>>>> he >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that dares not reason is a slave. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> send >>>>>>>>>>>>>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>> Google >>>>>>>>>>>>> Groups >>>>>>>>>>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>>>> it, >>>>>>>>>>>>> send >>>>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>> Google >>>>>>>>>>>> Groups >>>>>>>>>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>>>>> send >>>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>>>> Groups >>>>>>>>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>>>> send >>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Marianne Denning, TVI, MA >>>>>>>>>> Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired >>>>>>>>>> (513) 607-6053 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are 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http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Marianne Denning, TVI, MA >>>>>> Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired >>>>>> (513) 607-6053 >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups >>>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>> an >>>>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups >>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an >>>>> email to 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