On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 5:41 PM James Y Knight via cfe-dev
<cfe-...@lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Jun 3, 2021 at 6:19 PM James Y Knight <jykni...@google.com> wrote:
>>
>> I've just tried out discourse for the first time. It is not clear to me how
>> to use it to replace mailing lists. It has a setting "mailing list mode",
>> which sounds like the right thing -- sending all messages via email. Except
>> that option is global -- all messages in all categories on the llvm
>> discourse instance. Which definitely isn't what I want at all. I don't want
>> to subscribe to MLIR, for example.
>
>
> FWIW, it would seem that one secret trick here is to NOT check "mailing list
> mode" -- that option is mostly there to confuse you, I guess.
>
>> In general, I'd say I'm pretty uncomfortable with switching from a mailing
>> list to discourse. Discourse seems entirely reasonable to use for
>> end-user-facing forums, but I'm rather unconvinced about its suitability as
>> a dev-list replacement. Other communities (e.g. python) seem to have a
>> split, still: mailing lists for dev-lists, and discourse for end-user-facing
>> forums.
>>
>> I'd also note that Mailman3 provides a lot more features than what we're
>> used to with mailman2, including the ability to interact/post through the
>> website.
>>
>> Maybe someone can convince me that I'm just being a curmudgeon, but at this
>> point, I'd say we ought to be investigating options to have Someone Else
>> manage the mailman service, and keep using mailing lists, rather than
>> attempting to switch to discourse.
>
>
> On that last point, I've gone ahead and asked the folks at osci.io ("Open
> Source Community Infrastructure") if they'd be willing to host our mailing
> lists. They are a group at RedHat whose mission is to support infrastructure
> for open-source community projects, and they host mailman3 lists for a number
> of other open-source groups, already (https://www.osci.io/tenants/). So, I
> believe they have the necessary experience and expertise.
>
> They have said they indeed are willing and have the capacity to run this for
> us as a service, if we'd like. We'd still need to be responsible for things
> like list moderation, but they'd run the mailman installation on their
> infrastructure. In my opinion, we ought to take this option, rather than
> trying to push a migration to discourse.
>
> To me, it seems this would be a much clearer upgrade path, and would solve
> the hosting/volunteer-admin issue -- including for commit lists -- giving the
> current maintainers quicker relief from the undesired task of running the
> list service. Additionally, since it would be a migration to Mailman3, we
> would get many of the additional features mentioned as desirable, e.g.
> searchable archives and posting from the website.
Thank you for checking into a mailman3 hosting option, I think this
approach would make me feel the most comfortable (far more comfortable
than switching to Discord).
~Aaron
>
>> On Tue, Jun 1, 2021 at 4:50 PM Tom Stellard via cfe-dev
>> <cfe-...@lists.llvm.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> We recently[1] ran into some issues with the mailing lists that caused
>>> us to disable automatic approval of subscriptions. Over the past few
>>> months, the LLVM Foundation Board of Directors have been investigating
>>> solutions to this issue and are recommending that the project move its
>>> discussion forum from mailman to Discourse[2].
>>>
>>> The proposed migration plan is to move the discussion lists (e.g *-dev,
>>> *-users lists) to Discourse as soon as possible. The commit email lists
>>> (*-commits lists) will remain on mailman until a not-yet-determined date
>>> in the future, after which they will be replaced by something else.
>>> Some commit lists alternatives include Discourse and GitHub commit
>>> comments (but there may be others).
>>>
>>> Here are the reasons why the LLVM Foundation Board of Directors is
>>> recommending this change:
>>>
>>> - The LLVM project discussion lists cannot be adequately maintained by our
>>> current volunteer infrastructure staff and without changes we run the
>>> risk of a major outage.
>>>
>>> - We are able to make this change without significant impact to user's or
>>> developer's daily workflows because Discourse supports email
>>> subscriptions
>>> and posting (NOTE: if you are concerned that your workflow may be
>>> impacted
>>> by this change, please contact the Infrastructure Working Group[3], so
>>> they can help test your workflow with Discourse.)
>>>
>>> - Discourse gives us additional features that will benefit the community:
>>> - Easy to signup and subscribe to categories
>>> - Better moderation tools.
>>> - Web-based user interface.
>>> - Ability to send announcements to multiple categories to avoid having to
>>> cross-post community wide announcements.
>>>
>>> - A subset of the community (MLIR) have been experimenting with Discourse
>>> for over a year and are able to provide feedback about this experience
>>> to the Board of Directors.
>>>
>>> We did also consider one alternative, which was migrating our lists to a
>>> mailman hosting service. However, we concluded that with all the work it
>>> would take to migrate our lists to another service, it would be better
>>> if we moved to a service (like Discourse) that provided more features
>>> than what we have now.
>>>
>>> We understand that moving to Discourse is a change for the community and
>>> that people may be worried about this having a negative impact on their
>>> participation in the project. As mentioned above, we believe that this
>>> change can be done without significant impact to anyone’s workflows.
>>> If you disagree, please contact the Infrastructure Working Group, to
>>> document the impact to your workflow, so we can work together to find
>>> a solution for your issue.
>>>
>>> If you have any other questions or comments you can raise them on this
>>> thread and please keep criticisms constructive and on topic.
>>>
>>>
>>> LLVM Foundation Board of Directors
>>>
>>> [1] https://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/2021-March/149027.html
>>> [2] https://www.discourse.org/
>>> [3] https://github.com/llvm/llvm-iwg
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> cfe-dev mailing list
>>> cfe-...@lists.llvm.org
>>> https://lists.llvm.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/cfe-dev
>
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