On Monday 09 May 2005 05:21, Amos Shapira wrote:
> On 5/9/05, Shlomi Fish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Sunday 08 May 2005 15:40, you wrote:
> > > Other Linux benefits that I thought of is that since Linux is open
> > > source, all applications he will probably need are handy for download;
> > > in winodws you cannot download office ....
> >
> > You can download OpenOffice and a lot of other open-source software or
> > freeware for Windows as well. The advantages for that in Linux are:
> >
> > 1. Software comes in packages, with dependencies. No DLL Hell, and easy
> > removal and maintenance.
>
> As far as I can tell, DLL hell is over now with Windows XP/2003. I
> haven't noticed
> it when I used Windows as a programming desktop station for the last 6
> years.
But there's always a possibility. In Windows, it's impossible to keep several
versions of the same DLL due to the lack of symbolic links. And most packages
come in installers, that install all the required DLLs along with the
programs. (there is no dependency resolution). But it' possible that it's no
longer a problem as before. (possibly because the development of the DLLs has
become more stable).
>
> > > The security solution of XP (the XP firewall) and
> > > the free antispyware sw are enough for him; And he isn't convinced
> > > that it is worth to inverst time in migating to Linux.
> >
> > I wouldn't trust these things if I were him.
>
> If you are writing this to help the original author convince a user to
> do the switch then this is yet another argument that's simply not going
> to cut this.
> Remember that most people just look at a computer as a means to an
> end, as another tool like their TV or DVD. Stating "I wouldn't trust these"
> isn't going to convince a reasonable person, not without a logical argument
> behind it. How would you continue this sentence when he asks "why"?
>
Generally, a system should be expected to avoid having to rely on such
mechanisms and be secure by default. There can always be a new kind of
spyware that the anti-spyware software could not detect in time. As for
firewall, generally, the system should be secure even with all the services
exposed. I agree that firewalls/NATs/etc. are useful (even for Linux
systems). But for example, if you browse the web with a vulnerable browser,
that allows malicious sites to execute code on your machine, then all the
firewalls in the world won't prevent your machine from getting infected by a
trojan.
> > > Are there other Linux benefits which I can pose for moving to Linux ?
> > > (except the idea of moving to open and free source).
> >
> > Here are some more:
> >
> > 1. Open Source - You can always customize an application yourself (add
> > feature, fix bugs, know where to report them, etc.) or hire someone to do
> > that for you.
>
> His "target audience" is a non-programmer. He can't do it himself.
> As for paying for stuff - I think twice and thrice before I shell out money
> to buy any piece of hardware, and you expect his audience to pay someone to
> do some tweaks on software?
> If a piece of software doesn't do what he really wants he'll just look
> for another solution (admittedly, I'll do the same if I were him).
>
Possibly. However, the possibility always remains. And since the source code
is available, there's more possibility than someone among the many developers
interested in open-source will do that for you in time. With closed-source
software you have to rely on the vendor's whims.
> > 2. Price - no need to pay for anything including upgrades. All software
> > can be installed from the base system.
>
> How is BSA doing these days in Israel? Not a big point for OSS (yet?).
>
Still, if you install a non-legit version of Windows, you cannot use Windows
Upgrade (without various tricks). You cannot get support for this version of
Windows, and you cannot contact the vendor for help.
And the price is a big issue for medium or large organizations who wish to
deploy proprietary software on their systems.
> > 3. Community - the Linux and Open Source Community is very fun,
> > supportive. There are many resources available for getting help or for
> > learning more.
>
> Again - do "this Magimix Mixer has a community of 20,000 active users in
> Israel" sound like a convincing argument from a sales druid in the Shekem?
> That's more or less the attitude you should address.
The point is that you can get very good support from the community, which has
a larger amount of knowledge than the equivalent one for proprietary
software. (due to the availability of source, and other factors - see ESR's
"The Cathedral and the Bazaar" Series).
And I'm not only talking about Israel. You can always subscribe to an
international forum dealing with your software of choice, or even to a
foreign local forum that happens to speak English.
> As for "fun" - just look at the abuse someone received for sending a
> little-awkwardly worded job ad over here.
I agree that there are always exceptions. Some forums are more friendly than
others. You can always find a place where people will welcome you.
>
> (BTW - a linux-jobs mailing list is long overdue, IMHO).
>
Perhaps. But how do we convince everyone to subscribe to it, and people to
post jobs there instead of here (especially if not everyone subscribe there)?
Perhaps we should just establish an etiquette that says that one should not
comment on job ads that are not to one's liking. (unless of course they are
lacking in details, and the respondant wishes to cause the original poster to
clarify what's the job is all about).
Furthermore, now that the job tracker has an RSS Feed, I see less a point in
establishing a mailing list.
> > 4. Powerful Command Line and Scripting.
>
> See above. It might appeal to the kind of people who have to take apart any
> piece of hardware the comes through their door, and spend their weekends
> tweaking their car's engine, but how many such people do you know? I only
> heard about such a person in the media once over the last month.
Actually, I happen to chat over AIM with a guy whose brother (who is a
programmer) introduced him to Linux because it causes less problems and does
not have spyware, etc. He now happily uses Linux for some time now, is
comfortable with the command line, and he recently switched from SUSE Linux
to Debian testing, conducting the installation on his own. And he's a young
guy - in the 12th grade now, not one of them veteran DOS hackers. (like me).
I am not the kind a guy who takes apart pieces of hardware, or tempers with
cars. I am very much afraid and clueless in such physical activity. I like my
machines working, and if they break, I send them to repairs or buy new ones.
But I cannot get enough of working in the command line, automating common
tasks, and tweaking every bit in my computer. My father, on the other hand,
is very clueful in electronical and mechanical stuff, and he still uses
Windows, and does not try to learn how to program or automate common tasks.
(he relies on me for that). So it's a bad analogy.
The command line is very powerful and convenient once you get the hang of it.
By learning how to program in Shell/Perl you can make your life much easier.
Doing all this is much better done on Linux.
>
> > 5. Integrability - everything can be made to work together.
>
> As far as people are concerned - Windows does a better job of this right
> now. A couple of days ago a fellow programmer told me "On Windows you just
> double-click and it works".
> Face it - "double click and it just works" is our "competition". There
> are distros
> which come close to this (Ubuntu? Suse?). When this becomes the rule then
> you can start talking again.
>
Well, it's hard for me to tell, because I use the command line for many
things.
> > 6. Eye Candy/Themes/Skins/etc.
>
> Most users (I'm thinking of my mother right now) don't care about this.
> They can use a computer for ten years and when you'll look at their desktop
> you'll see the same default green-hill and window decorations as if the
> computer was installed yesterday (which might as well be true :), and tons
> of files they never
> bothered to clean off their desktop...
>
Heh. But once you get used to changing skins, you can never go back...
> > 7. Virtual Workspaces. (The MSVDM solution for Windows sucks ass).
>
> I always have them on. I find myself hardly switching between them. They
> are going to be a major source of confusion for people who don't know what
> they mean.
Well, I use Virtual Workspaces a lot, and switch between them constantly. Most
people will become used to using them once they understand what they are all
about. (which takes 5 minutes).
> OS-X like "Expose" is the right way to go :)
>
I'm not familiar with it, but I believe I saw it in action in one of the
presentations in YAPC, where the presentor used a Mac OS X laptop. He could
switch to a screen full of small screenshots of the applications and switch
to different applications like that.
Regards,
Shlomi Fish
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Homepage: http://www.shlomifish.org/
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