This is not high salt use. This is the normal use that has been going on for years. It looks worse than it is because the use was for ice only and not snow conditions as well. The salt needs to be driven on for it to dissolve as well. Which is why there appears to be “excess “ on side roads. You probably would not see much “excess” on main roads.
I’m curious if anyone who has an issue with this salt use has ever lost a loved one due to icy road conditions. If so your tune might change On Sun, Jan 16, 2022 at 3:59 PM Michelle Barnes via Lincoln < [email protected]> wrote: > Dear Dennis, > > Regarding your suggested cost/benefit analysis of salt use. > > What of the indirect and direct costs of sodium and chloride to human and > environmental health, including clean water and healthy wetlands (as well > as the impact on climate resiliency of healthy wetlands), as Joan Kimball > mentioned previously? Today, or in the future, or both? > > It seems to me a pretty tricky public safety issue to balance, and there > are intergenerational equity concerns, at least in principle. It isn’t just > about the catastrophic loss of life today as there are potentially > sustained human health impacts such as hypertension and heart disease that > lead to impaired quality of life today and potentially more death in the > future, not to mention the potential environmental health impacts > including, eventually, the potential for impaired drinking water or at > least the costs of making it more drinkable somehow. Some of these may be > off in the future, or they may already be here and we just don’t know it, > but they are likely legitimate concerns to at least consider. > > If we want to speak only the language of economics and not entertain moral > or ethical considerations, could we be sued for those impacts as well, if > not today then in the future? Might we be called upon to clean it up at > some point? There is a cost for that, too. To ignore it is to put that > potential cost off onto future generations. There is at least some > probability of these things happening that I think should be factored into > the economic cost benefit analysis being suggested below. (Some have argued > these additional impacts with more certitude than I have — I am still on > the learning curve here.) > > Or do we really just focus on the narrow public safety concern below, the > here and now of ice, salt and traffic accidents and their impacts on > today’s human life, liberty and lawsuits directly related to this problem > and leave these other (potential) problems for future generations to pay > for? Arguably inequitable, but certainly a tried and true pattern of human > behavior upon which great wealth has been accumulated at the expense of > future generations. > > Doing such an analysis would take a lot of time for any one of us, or even > a group of us. In the meanwhile, maybe we can figure out how to allay the > immediate safety concerns around the intersection of icy roads and driving > without using more salt than is absolutely required. It isn’t clear that > that is what has happened of late, as we’ve seen both the brine > administered before the storm and extensive amounts of rock salt afterwards > even at the end of small cul-de-sacs off of small roads where very few > people are living and no one would be driving quickly. Many of us have not > seen this amount of rock salt being applied since the brine began being > applied. I literally end up with salt on my clothes at the end of the day, > which has never happened before. Was this change in application — the > re-emergence of hefty amounts of rock salt — due to more accidents? I don’t > know. It would be good to know. Or is it an equipment malfunction as some > have suggested? > > How does this high-salt policy compare with a policy of low salt and > winter tires? Or other alternative means for keeping the roads safe? When > we think about the costs and benefits of different alternatives, I hope we > consider both the direct and indirect costs and benefits to both human and > environmental health, today and for future generations and not the more > restricted perspective promulgated below. These should be considered as we > think of creative ways to solve these problems, as some solutions may be > more expensive for us for the problems we think we are facing right now, > but they may be both cheaper and more worthwhile from a variety of > perspectives in the long run. > > Best, > Michelle Barnes > South Great Road > > On Jan 16, 2022, at 2:56 PM, Dennis Liu <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > As always, it’s good to look at the data. Assuming that data is > available. To look at just LINCOLN, the first question is – when was > “peak” salt use? Some sources say that salt use in the Northeast in > general peaked in the 70s and 80s, and has since reduced thanks to better > weather forecasting, better spreading techniques, the use of pre-treatment > (which Lincoln) uses, and differing patterns of snow PLOWING. So one would > have to use some controls to get an apples-to-apples measurement. > > > > More problematically, we may be confounded by the fact that Lincoln alone > is a TINY data set. > > > > Consider the hypothetical – let’s say a bus crashes on ice and injures or > kills 40 people. That would be a massive spike in a tiny data set. To do > this accurately, one would have to look not just at Lincoln, but probably > at Massachusetts, or, better yet, New England, with similar weather > patterns and salting procedures. > > > > --Dennis > > > > > > *From:* Sara Mattes <[email protected]> > *Sent:* Sunday, January 16, 2022 2:45 PM > *To:* Dennis Liu <[email protected]> > *Cc:* Lincoln Talk <[email protected]> > *Subject:* Re: [LincolnTalk] Too much - or too little - salt on the road > > > > OK-using this approach, we would need to look at how many loves have been > lost, how many injuries have been sustained, much property damage has > accrued, and how many law suits filed against the Town when there was not > this much salt put down. > > > > This should all be public information, available in Town Offices and in > PubliC Safety logs. > > > > Before we raise alarm bells, let’s consult data. > > Then , there is a case to be made…or not. > > > > In the meantime, there are State mandated regardng the quality of our > drinking water, and also storm water and its content. > > That we know. > > > > > > > > > > ------ > Sara Mattes > > > > > > > > > > On Jan 16, 2022, at 2:34 PM, Dennis Liu <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Since this seems to be a growing conversation, a couple of points as food > for thought. > > > > As with everything else involving politics and public works, we have to > ask ourselves when considering taking action – “what are the TRADEOFFS for > taking a proposed action?” Or “Every benefit has a cost; what is it in > this case?” > > > > It’s not only the impact on the town budget (for the salt, and for the DPW > crew’s time). It’s also about SAFETY. > > > > What’s the cost of *avoiding an accident*? Every year, 1,300 people are > killed and 116,800 people are injured due to vehicle accidents on snow, > slushy or icy pavement. What’s the cost of a life lost, or injury > suffered? > > > > What about the cost of damaging or destroying a vehicle – and whatever the > vehicle hits? Pedestrians struck in crosswalks or on sidewalks? Damaged > telephone poles, buildings, signs, parked cars? > > > > And let’s not forget the massive associated costs – lawsuits. Why do > businesses seemingly always “oversalt” their parking lots, roads and > paths? Because it’s a really, really common and easy-to-win lawsuit. The > cost of putting down ice melt is a tiny, tiny cost of paying for a lawsuit, > even with insurance. Indeed, some insurance policies require plowing and > salting. > > > > So, from the Town’s perspective – the “cost” for salting the roads is a > combination of the actual expense for the salt, the cost for DPW time (and > amortized expense of running salters), and, arguably, the externality cost > of having some degree of “excess” salt entering into water. The “benefit” > of salting, even salting to “excess”, is the avoidance of lawsuits, and > avoiding more accidents, causing harm to life, limb and property. > > > > *Avoiding excessive salting is a good thing! But if the Town is unable to > lay down some perceived “perfect” quantity of salt, given the constantly > changing weather conditions, surely it’d be better to oversalt by some > degree, given the inherent risks?* > > > > I urge everyone concerned about this issue to study NOT ONLY the impact of > road salt on water and wildlife, but also take into account the impact of a > life lost – perhaps a friend or loved one – as well as the economic impact > from these accidents. > > > > HTH, > > > > --Dennis > > > > -- > The LincolnTalk mailing list. > To post, send mail to [email protected]. > Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/. > Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/ > . > Change your subscription settings at > https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. > > > > -- > The LincolnTalk mailing list. > To post, send mail to [email protected]. > Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/. > Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/ > . > Change your subscription settings at > https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. > > -- > The LincolnTalk mailing list. > To post, send mail to [email protected]. > Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/. > Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/ > . > Change your subscription settings at > https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. > >
-- The LincolnTalk mailing list. To post, send mail to [email protected]. Search the archives at http://lincoln.2330058.n4.nabble.com/. Browse the archives at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. Change your subscription settings at https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln.
