Hello all,I read Murray's answer in the quoted message in this email, and after reviewing the previous messages I have a few questions or bits of feedback of my own.
- In the design document and the email you didn't describe in words what these clefs actually do, I think. From the visual evidence it looks like the middle line is the pitch described by the clef (a4, etc). However, the F and G clefs look like they act like normal, not like F or G is the middle line (the C clef does act like that, though). Is that an oversight or intentional?
- Related to the above question, I'll talk about the design of the clefs themselves, but I don't think you should use the regular G F and C clefs in the new set of letter clefs because that would be too confusing (if you see a G clef you don't know if it's the normal kind or the new kind). Besides, the F and G clef show that the f3 and g4 pitches are on different lines, not the middle one.
- Not to be that guy, but do you really need to define custom symbols for the letter clefs? I can see the reasoning in the design document, but leaving aside any critiques about the different clef designs being stylistically very different from each other (they are especially different from the normal clefs), any musical font would change how the clefs look. Is it just to make the new clefs "look like" old clefs (or how they look now)?
I drafted this design document of my own which tries to enhance your own. Please feel free to adapt or use it yourself. In it, I include my best attempt as a definition of these clefs and Lilypond code to make visual examples.* The other differences with this and your design document are that I used ordinary letters instead of custom designs (but that doesn't really matter) and slightly more idiomatic lilypond/scheme code (I tried to make my own procedure that would act like the lilypond \clef procedure).
Thanks, -William* On the lilypond mailing list, it is common to just include lilypond code, either as an attachment or pasted into the email text itself if it is not too long, instead of making a PDF document with text and images. It's easy for others to download it and run on their own computer to see the results.
On 1/17/25 13:30, Michael Gerdau wrote:
Hi Murray,please always include the list as others might wish to know the answer as well.Do I understand your answer to my first question correctly when I paraphrase it like this: "I'm aware that some of my new clefs replicate other already existing clefs. I do that simply because of personal taste".FWIW I'm used to reading tenor, soprano, mezzosoprano and alto clef (on top of the usual G and F clefs) due to choir music having used these clefs during the 19th century. At least in germany. So I would not want to use different shapes to the same meaning. But then I don't play bagpipes and know between little to nothing about their traditions.Since you wish for seven letters for the diffent notes something could be tuned to then I ask (a bit provocatively ;):Why not suggest twelve? Am 17.01.25 um 18:46 schrieb murray.macken...@forces.gc.ca:Michael,At the outset, I should mention that I'm a bit of a math guy. I like G to mean G, and F to mean F, and C to mean C always.A FEW EXAMPLES:In the situation of a single-lined stave: I want to be able to index that line (Fritz BERGER style uniline) with any of the first (1st) seven (7) letters of the roman alphabet. And - for example - I don't like to use a G-clef to index a single B-line. Some kind of clef that looks like a B should be used for that.Back in the 1970s when drummers writing & playing sheet music designed to competitively work for specific pipe tunes was still kind of a new thing: The snare line would be G from the G-clef, and the tenor drum line would be an F from the F clef, and the bass line would also be an F from a very similar F clef. This worked because the bass was in the bottom of the system and the snare would be up top and the tenor would be in between. In this method, the clefs of the drum voices weren't actually indicating pitches, but nowadays for the tenor/bass corps some bands are starting to have a bunch of differently pitched drums.So now the tenor & bass drums, which were bagpipe instrument pitch A3 & A2 respectively, should be acknowledged as A's, thusly the bass drum voice can get a dedicated clef (A2) and the tenors can do whatever they do (quasi melody on 5-line F-clef is the current fashion for them).I also hear there are also deliberately dissonant tunings now towards the subtonic or supertonic degrees of the pipe scale instead of the more intuitive tonic, dominant,... etc. In that case I double-down on my desire for generality of the clef-fonts.Another example would be using a D-clef to index the center-line of the three-line stave used in the "Binneas is Borreraig" book of classical Highland piping (samples can be seen on the web). An F-clef up that high would just feel wrong and there are no G or C lines in that stave. The author, Roderick ROSS (therefor I suppose) declined to use clefs entirely.And I think maybe someone will ask: Why have even a single line if the instrument voice only has one (1) pitch? Answer: Highland drummers place punctae above the line for right-hand notes and below the line for left-hand notes; thusly no R's and L's under the score. The tenors (at least one tenor drummer) often do other things entirely, and these days they seem to own both the F-clefs and the C-clefs.Cpl Murray J. MacKenzie, BSc CD1 3rd Piper, THE CAPE BRETON HIGHLANDERS Canadian Armed Forcesmurray.macken...@forces.gc.ca / pers cell: (902) 565-2326 / unit fax: (902) 564-25333eme Sonneur, THE CAPE BRETON HIGHLANDERS Forces armées canadiennesmurray.macken...@forces.gc.ca / pers cell: (902) 565-2326 / unit fax: (902) 564-2533-----Original Message----- From: Michael Gerdau <m...@qata.de> Sent: Friday, January 17, 2025 06:00To: Murray MacKENZIE <mur...@hotmail.com>; supp...@musescore.com; lilypond-user@gnu.org; MacMillan Sgt MJ@CBH@Sydney <michael.macmill...@forces.gc.ca>; Alex Hellsten <alex.hells...@iki.fi> Cc: MacKenzie Cpl MJ@CBH@Sydney <murray.macken...@forces.gc.ca>; Mike MacMillan <mike_macmill...@hotmail.com>Subject: Re: clef - letter clefs - A, B, D, E Hi Murray, I've looked at your clefs and have a few questions:1) What is the difference between your AtriumTHREE/BarraTHREE/EuEchoFOUR clefs and tenor (or tenorvarC)/tenorG/mezzosoprano clefs respectively?At first glance they appear to mean the same. 2) Which musical problem are you trying to solve by these new clefs? [note I'm not disputing they might be useful, I'm just curious] Kind regards, Michael
-- William Rehwinkel (any pronouns) Juilliard School '26 - Oberlin Conservatory '24 will...@williamrehwinkel.net - https://williamrehwinkel.net PGP Public Key: https://ftp.williamrehwinkel.net/pubkey.txt
\version "2.25.21"
%{
New clefs design document
In place of ordinary C F and G clefs, in the place
of the clef appears the following:
- A natural pitch class as a capital letter (A, B, etc.)
stretching from the bottom line to the top
- A number enclosed in a square or circle
representing the octave of the pitch in
SCIENTIFIC PITCH NOTATION (middle C = C4)
The pitch represented by the letter and the number
in scientific notation represents the pitch on the
MIDDLE LINE of the staff.
Note: to write the ordinary clefs in this new
system, use the following.
- Treble clef: B4
- Alto clef: C4
- Tenor Clef: A3
- Bass Clef: D3
%}
#(define-markup-command
(clef-letter-number layout props letter number)
(string? string?)
(interpret-markup layout props
#{ \markup {
\line {
\lower #1.0 \fontsize #8 { \bold #letter }
\lower #0 \whiteout \box \fontsize #0.0 #number
}
}#}) )
newclef = #(define-music-function
( letter number offset)
(string? string? number?)
(make-music
'SequentialMusic
'elements
(list (make-music
'ContextSpeccedMusic
'context-type
'Staff
'element
(make-music
'OverrideProperty
'pop-first
#t
'grob-value
ly:text-interface::print
'grob-property-path
(list 'stencil)
'symbol
'Clef))
(make-music
'ContextSpeccedMusic
'context-type
'Staff
'element
(make-music
'OverrideProperty
'pop-first
#t
'grob-value
(markup #:clef-letter-number letter number)
'grob-property-path
(list 'text)
'symbol
'Clef))
(make-music
'ContextSpeccedMusic
'context-type
'Staff
'element
(make-music 'PropertySet 'value offset 'symbol 'middleCPosition))
(make-music
'ContextSpeccedMusic
'context-type
'Staff
'element
(make-music 'PropertySet 'value #t 'symbol 'forceClef)))))
\score {
\relative c' {
\newclef "E" "4" -2
%\set Staff.forceClef = ##t
c2
%\displayMusic \set Staff.forceClef = ##t
\newclef "B" "4" -6
c2
\newclef "C" "4" 0
c2
\newclef "A" "3" 2
c2
\newclef "D" "3" 6
c2 \break
c1
}
}
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