Wouldn't put it in anything
Jim
On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:48:05 -0400 VIRGIL N SALISBURY <virg...@juno.com>
writes:
> Not an oil problem. Ran it in 70 and 74 Karmen Ghia's,
> No problem, Virg
>
> On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:54:06 -0400 James Ferris <mij...@juno.com>
> writes:
> > I put that stuff in my VW bus in 1980 when it had omly 25,000
> miles
> > and
> > in the next 1,500 miles it droped a valve and destroyed theentire
> > engine.I hope it has been improved since then.
> > Jim
> > On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:39:48 -0400 VIRGIL N SALISBURY
> > <virg...@juno.com>
> > writes:
> > > AMSOIL 10W-40, of course, Virg. Note signature line ;
> )
> > >
> > > On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:53:42 -0500 "countryhomeprint"
> > > <countryhomepr...@bellsouth.net> writes:
> > > > My 2180 Volkswagen now has 23 hours on it since rebuild and
> > first
> > >
> > > > flight. I
> > > > have been using a 30 weight oil. When the 25 hour inspection
> and
> >
> > > > oilchange
> > > > comes about, what weight multi-grade oil do you recommend. All
>
> > of
> > > my
> > > >
> > > > temperatures stay well within the recommended limits.
> > > >
> > > > Bill Page
> > > > boliverp...@bellsouth.net
> > > > N880AB
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: <beverlyrai...@bellsouth.net>
> > > > To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2006 11:15 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: Re: KR> oils and stuff
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Hello Phil
> > > > > Thanks for the email and tell Ron I appreciate the time it
> > took
> > >
> > > > him to
> > > > > reply, and the length of his explanation. He is busy
> running
> > a
> > >
> > > > business
> > > > > so I know he made some sacrifice, even if it means sleep!
> LOL
> > > > >
> > > > > I will agree that all oils have improved over the years,
> they
> >
> > > > would have
> > > > > to. It would be stupid to not include advances in straight
> > > weights
> > > > found
> > > > > in multi's. And some of Rons points about the merits of
> > single
> > >
> > > > visc oils
> > > > > I also agree with. I believe all engines should be broken in
>
> > on
> > >
> > > > single
> > > > > visc oils. The multi's do have too many additives that can
> end
> >
> > > up
> > > > burnt or
> > > > > not providing enough cushion lube to closely machined parts.
>
> > We
> > >
> > > > are also
> > > > > making some broad statements, because Oil Companies are
> known
> >
> > > for
> > > > changing
> > > > > oil and fuels to suit different climates AND different
> > markets.
> > > > >
> > > > > The early 70's engines and late 60's engines are probably
> the
> >
> > > best
> > > > know
> > > > > around the world. Most other engines are measured against
> > these
> > >
> > > > engines.
> > > > > However, they are two full generations back from today's
> > advanced
> > >
> > > > engines.
> > > > > Those engines were kept at 160 to 165 degrees because water
>
> > > pump,
> > > >
> > > > > radiator, coolant, and oil technology could not keep them
> cool
> >
> > > if
> > > > they ran
> > > > > hotter. This has a negative effect on fuel atomization and
>
> > > > combustion
> > > > > chamber efficiency. Here we need things to be the hottest it
>
> > can
> > >
> > > > be
> > > > > without causing the fuel to flash ignite or become complete
>
> > > vapor
> > > > prior to
> > > > > entering the chamber itself.
> > > > >
> > > > > Late 90's and engines of the 2000's are designed to attempt
> to
> >
> > > > maximize
> > > > > these parameters. They have thermostats that do not open
> until
> >
> > > 195
> > > > degrees
> > > > > and are fully open between 205 and 210F. Then system hovers
>
> > the
> > >
> > > > temp
> > > > > between 205 and 220 relying on thermostat, and the coolant
> > > > properties and
> > > > > pressure to prevent the coolant from boiling over. These
> > modern
> > >
> > > > multi
> > > > > oils also need over 140 degrees before they even begin to
> > > activate
> > > > the
> > > > > additives within them. An engine maintained at or near 160
> > will
> > >
> > > > never be
> > > > > able to benefit from a multi oil and will in fact do damage.
>
> > > > However, this
> > > > > engine will also have a short life due to this low temp, as
>
> > > > engineers of
> > > > > late have found, due to the fact that the metal is "cold"
> too
> >
> > > much
> > > > of the
> > > > > time effecting everything from the fuel atomization to the
> > > > strength of the
> > > > > crank. Mixtures will have to be richer, which causes more
> > > cylinder
> > > > wash,
> > > > > shortens any oil's life. The crank is weaker possibly as
> much
> > as
> > >
> > > > by half,
> > > > > due to the fact that areas not flexing are around engine
> temp,
> >
> > > > while areas
> > > > > flexing and working are going up in temp, with a more
> brittle
> >
> > > > metal. I
> > > > > have always been told by those that know that metals break
> > > faster
> > > > in the
> > > > > winter than summer.
> > > > >
> > > > > A quick check of the temp ranges of operation for single vs
>
> > > multi
> > > > will
> > > > > reveal that there is no way a single visc oil can run well
> in
> > a
> > >
> > > > modern
> > > > > engine because it cannot adapt from 0 degrees in winter to
> > > > operation
> > > > > internally of 250 degrees, and then switch to temps of 70
> > > degrees
> > > > to 130
> > > > > degrees outside driving underhood temps to 400 degrees and
> > > > internal temps
> > > > > back up to 250 degrees. And all this with an engine that is
>
> > > > designed to
> > > > > begin driving after only a warmup of 30 seconds.
> > > > >
> > > > > Single visc oils can be used regularly if temps are paid
> > > attention
> > > > to and
> > > > > the weight adjusted accordingly. Most people do not go to
> the
> >
> > > > trouble
> > > > > hence the need to develop oils that adjust for you. My fear
>
> > is
> > >
> > > > that since
> > > > > alot of our readers do not know, they will not know the
> > > difference
> > > > and
> > > > > that could cause an engine failure. I agree that lack of
> such
> >
> > > > know how
> > > > > should be a screening tool for not allowing these people
> into
> >
> > > the
> > > > air, but
> > > > > somehow they make it up there any how. More and more
> builders
> >
> > > are
> > > > using
> > > > > engine combinations with modern settings, clearances and
> > metals
> > >
> > > > and need
> > > > > these multi's to survive. A case in point is the use of the
>
> > Geo
> > >
> > > > Metro 3
> > > > > and 4 cylinder engines. These engines MUST use the thinner
> > 10w30
> > >
> > > > or 5w30
> > > > > oils or their valve train will fail very soon after they are
>
> > put
> > >
> > > > into use,
> > > > > causing catastrophic failure. Their oil return holes in the
>
> > > heads
> > > > do not
> > > > > provide a large enough orifice to allow a thicker oil to
> > > > circulate, common
> > > > > among most all of the overhead cam engines. Depending on
> the
> >
> > > > version of
> > > > > the vortec engine they may also have to use a multi oil to
> be
> >
> > > > properly
> > > > > maintained. Single weight oils tend to be correct for too
> > narrow
> > >
> > > > of the
> > > > > temp range, making the possible extremes go outside their
> > design
> > >
> > > > range and
> > > > > begin breakdown.
> > > > >
> > > > > Especially in cases of engine sitting and getting part time
>
> > use
> > >
> > > > the
> > > > > multi's are particularly necessary due to the fact that when
>
> > the
> > >
> > > > oil was
> > > > > added it may have been summer but now is winter and a single
>
> > > visc
> > > > will not
> > > > > be able to handle the range of temps and may not pump
> > initially
> > >
> > > > when
> > > > > started. Multi's will thin due to additives and circulate
> > > > immediately.
> > > > > Even looking at the popular Corvair motor, the temps it will
>
> > > > operate in is
> > > > > outside air maybe 60 degrees and then will be working hard
> > > > climbing and
> > > > > soaring to head temps of over 300 degrees. Single visc oils
>
> > > cannt
> > > > adjust
> > > > > for this wide variation in temps, so either you have one
> that
> >
> > > > handles the
> > > > > low temp part, or the high temp, but not both. If singles
> > could
> > > do
> > > > this,
> > > > > there would be no need for the multi's any more. If VW's are
>
> > > > supposed to
> > > > > operate similar to the Corvair, then you can see a single
> used
> >
> > > > after
> > > > > breakin will sacrifice durability and longevity.
> > > > >
> > > > > Colin
> > > > > N96TA
> > > > >>
> > > > >> From: "Phil Matheson" <mathes...@dodo.com.au>
> > > > >> Date: 2006/06/24 Sat PM 10:30:26 EDT
> > > > >> To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
> > > > >> Subject: Re: KR> oils and stuff
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Colin Wrote :Just for the record I will say this is foolish
>
> > and
> > >
> > > > >> potentially
> > > > >> catastrophic
> > > > >> ----------------------------------------------------
> > > > >> This is a reply from Ron Slender VW Engines,
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Phill,
> > > > >> I would like Colin to have a look at the article on oils I
>
> > sent
> > >
> > > > you.
> > > > >> Agreed
> > > > >> that the refining processes are much more advanced from
> years
> >
> > > > gone by
> > > > >> however
> > > > >> that applies to all viscosities of oil including single
> > > > viscosity.
> > > > >> The reality is that single viscosity oils handle a higher
> > heat
> > >
> > > > range
> > > > >> better
> > > > >> than a multigrade.
> > > > >> Additionally a multigrade was primarily developed so that
> an
> >
> > > auto
> > > > engine
> > > > >> could start at a relatively cold condition and gradually
> > reach
> > >
> > > > operating
> > > > >> temperature which in most vehicles is around 160/180
> > degrees.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Multigrade oils have a lot of polymers and additives to
> give
> >
> > > the
> > > > oil the
> > > > >> viscosity but do nothing to help lubrication, in fact they
>
> > > break
> > > > down in
> > > > >> high temp conditions.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Single viscosity can handle the higher temps better.
> > > Additionally
> > > > the oil
> > > > >> tends to "cling " better for cold starts much like the
> sticky
> >
> > > > Shell oil
> > > > >> used
> > > > >> for aircraft because not all aircraft are used every day.
> > Some
> > >
> > > > oils can
> > > > >> drain off providing high friction starts until oil pressure
>
> > is
> > >
> > > > there.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I believe that you have to know a lot about the environment
>
> > the
> > >
> > > > aircraft
> > > > >> is
> > > > >> operating in and recommend the oil according to the
> > > application.
> > > > >> Additionally Phil's engine is basically new and oils that
> > have
> > >
> > > > friction
> > > > >> modifiers and high range of viscosity will effect the
> running
> >
> > > in
> > > > of that
> > > > >> engine.
> > > > >> After Phill has reached 50 hours then he make look at
> > > alternative
> > > > oil
> > > > >> options.
> > > > >> However we have used straight 30 ; 40 ; & even 50 (very hot
>
> > > > conditions)
> > > > >> and
> > > > >> the Shell oil for aircraft for air cooled engines.
> > > > >> We do not use multigrade because of the fear that friction
>
> > > > modifiers are
> > > > >> often used in these types of oils which inhibit running in.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Colin, your article on HP and how it effects speed was very
>
> > > good
> > > > >> demonstrating that hotting up an engine can only increase
> > > overall
> > > > speed
> > > > >> marginally. Without going into elaborate equations the
> power
> >
> > > > difference
> > > > >> was
> > > > >> 35 HP and the actual Torque increase using 2500 rpm as a
> > > constant
> > > > the
> > > > >> extra
> > > > >> Torque created by adding an extra 35 HP was only 63 ft lbs
>
> > and
> > >
> > > > that was
> > > > >> at
> > > > >> full power.
> > > > >> Same goes for our gear drive engines. We have the Torque
> that
> >
> > > say
> > > > a 100
> > > > >> hp
> > > > >> creates at 4200 , the reduction drive multiplies the Torque
>
> > by
> > >
> > > > the ratio
> > > > >> on
> > > > >> top of this. As long as a respectable size prop can be used
>
> > to
> > >
> > > > benefit
> > > > >> from
> > > > >> the extra Torque gain then the advantages of a reduction
> > drive
> > > is
> > > > clear.
> > > > >> Because of the extra torque gain take off roll is reduced
> > > > particularly
> > > > >> when
> > > > >> loaded, climb out is great and cruise is probably achieved
> at
> > a
> > >
> > > > lower
> > > > >> throttle setting because of the prop diameter and available
>
> > > > torque.
> > > > >> A reduction drive will not necessarily provide a higher
> speed
> >
> > > > because
> > > > >> this
> > > > >> is a character of the aircrafts drag as Colin explains.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> The propeller has not even been discussed. Fixed pitch is a
>
> > > > compromise,
> > > > >> that
> > > > >> we all except as being the norm because anything else is
> > > > expensive.
> > > > >> Why not fit a suitable in flight adjustable propeller then
>
> > you
> > >
> > > > will see
> > > > >> some
> > > > >> performance.
> > > > >> Trouble is the cost of one of those, but ...I would rather
>
> > > spend
> > > > money in
> > > > >> that direction then spend lots of $`s trying to squeeze out
> a
> >
> > > few
> > > > extra
> > > > >> HP
> > > > >> out of an engine for very little gain.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Not quite with you on oil Colin but I did like your
> thoughts
> > on
> > >
> > > > HP and
> > > > >> drag.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Ron Slender
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Phillip Matheson
> > > > >> 0408665880 (cell)
> > > > >> VHPKR
> > > > >> Australia.
> > > > >> mathes...@dodo.com.au
> > > > >> NEW WEB PAGE
> > > > >> www.philskr2.50megs.com
> > > > >>
> > > > >> http://www.vw-engines.com/
> > > > >> OLD WEB PAGE
> > > > >> http://mywebpage.netscape.com/flyingkrphil/VHPKR.html
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> _______________________________________
> > > > >> Search the KRnet Archives at
> > > > http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> > > > >> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to
> > > > krnet-le...@mylist.net
> > > > >> please see other KRnet info at
> > http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________
> > > > > Search the KRnet Archives at
> > > > http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
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> > > > > please see other KRnet info at
> http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________
> > > > Search the KRnet Archives at
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> > > > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Virgil N. Salisbury - AMSOIL
> > > www.lubedealer.com/salisbury
> > > Miami ,Fl
> > >
> > > _______________________________________
> > > Search the KRnet Archives at
> > > http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> > > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to
> > krnet-le...@mylist.net
> > > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________
> > Search the KRnet Archives at
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> >
> >
>
>
> Virgil N. Salisbury - AMSOIL
> www.lubedealer.com/salisbury
> Miami ,Fl
>
> _______________________________________
> Search the KRnet Archives at
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>
