Mark Langford- Sorry Mark, I didn't communicate very well. I was not trying to champion 23012...rather to suggest that the thought of using 23012 doesn't seem as absurd to me as you suggested.
Didn't Ken and Stu take a good deal from the Taylor Monoplane when they designed the KR1...and didn't John Taylor himself design the Titch after the Monoplane in an attempt at a faster airplane than the Monoplane (which the Titch was)? The Titch used 23012. Your main complaint against 23012 seems to be handling, or specifically, its abrupt stall behavior. But what could be more docile than a Bonanza, Queen Air, Baron, Flaglor Scooter, Piel Emeraude or Taylorcraft? All use 23012. Or if it's speed you want, what would be a better example of a prop-driven fast airplane than the Grumman Bearcat (doesn't this still hold the world speed record for prop planes?) or Hughes H1 (didn't it set several world speed records?)? Both use 23012. I'm sorry, but I believe 23012 probably COULD be used well in a KR. Doing the wing itself correctly could produce a very good result in both handling and speed. You make a good point that few people are qualified to proceed with such engineering toward a certain result. But has anyone officially posted the correct amount of washout using Ashok's new sections? And if they have, has anyone built a wing with that washout, flown it, and testified as to whether it is the right amount of washout? And depending on pilot experience, just how much washout would really be enough? It seems that at this point, there could be nearly as much experimentation building with Ashok's sections as with 23012. I couldn't agree with you more though, that it seems a waste of time to engineer a correct KR2S wing based on 23012 when the existing KR2S wing can be built with Ashok's new sections. -Lloyd Point of interest Several years ago someone gave me a list of most airplanes built and the sections each used at the root and at the tip. I haven't yet discovered any of this data as being incorrect. I found it interesting to sort out of that list, all the airplanes that used 23012. Thought the other readers might find it interesting too: Conventional Aircraft: Wing Root Airfoil Wing Tip Airfoil ===============/=============/========== Aero Boero 115 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Aero Boero 180 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Aero Boero 210 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Aero Boero 260 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Aero Boero 95 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Aero Visions Celebrity NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Afco RL.3 Monsoon NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Air Metal AM-C 111 NACA 23015 NACA 23012 AISA 1-115 NACA 23015 NACA 23009 AISA 1-11B NACA 23015 NACA 23009 Alpavia RF2 Avion-Planeur NACA 23015 NACA 23012 Alpavia RF3 Avion-Planeur NACA 23015 NACA 23012 Arctic S1B2 Arctic Tern NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Armstrong W'worth 650 Argosy NACA 23018 NACA 23012 Auster AOP 9 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Auster B.8 Agricola NACA 43018 NACA 23012 Auster J1B NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Auster J/1U Workmaster NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Aviasud AE 206 Mistral NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Aviation Traders 98 Carvair NACA 23016 NACA 23012 Avro 683 Lancaster NACA 23018 NACA 23012 Avro 685 York NACA 23018 NACA 23012 Avro 688 Tudor NACA 23018 NACA 23018 Avro 691 Lancastrian NACA 23018 NACA 23012 Avro 694 Lincoln NACA 23018 NACA 23012 Avro 696 Shackleton NACA 23018 NACA 23012 Avro 706 Ashton NACA 23018 NACA 23007 Beagle B.109 Airedale NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Beagle D.5/180 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Beech 18 NACA 23018 NACA 23012 Beech 33/35/36 Bonanza NACA 23016.5 NACA 23012 Beech 45 T-34 Mentor NACA 23016.5 NACA 23012 Beech 50 Twin Bonanza NACA 23014.1 NACA 23012 Beech 55/58 Baron NACA 23016.5 NACA 23010.5 Beech 60 Duke NACA 23016.5 NACA 23012 Beech 65 Queen Air NACA 23018 NACA 23012 Beech 73 Jet Mentor NACA 23016.5 NACA 23012 Beech D17-G17 Staggerwing NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Beriev Be-6 NACA 23020 NACA 23010 Bert BF3 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Besneux P.70B NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Boillon Fulmo NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Boisavia 60 Mercurey NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Bolkow 207 NACA 23018 NACA 23012 Britten-Norman BN-2A Islander NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Britten-Norman BN-2A Trislander NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Britten-Norman BN-3 Nymph NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Brugger MB-2 Colirbri 2 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 CallAir S-1B1 Super Cadet NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Carma Weejet VT-1 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Cessna 208 Caravan NACA 23017.424 NACA 23012 Cessna 303 Crusader NACA 23017 NACA 23012 Cessna 500 Citation NACA 23014 NACA 23012 Cessna 550 Bravo NACA 23014 NACA23012 Cessna T-50 Bobcat NACA 23014 NACA 23012 Chrislea CH.3 Super Ace NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Civil Aviation Dept Revathi Mk 1 NACA 23015 NACA 23012 Cornelius XFG-1 NACA 23018 NACA 23012 Douglas DC-4/C-54 NACA 23016 NACA 23012 Douglas DC-6 NACA 23016 NACA 23012 Douglas DC-7 NACA 23016 NACA 23012 Druine 31 Turbulent NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Druine 5 Turbi NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Durand Mk V NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Durban Aeriel Mk.II NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Duruble RD-02 Edelweiss NACA 23018 NACA 23009 Duruble RD-03 Edelweiss NACA 23018 NACA 23012 EAA Super Acro-Sport NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Embraer 110 Bandeirante NACA 23016 NACA 23012 Embraer 120 Brasilia NACA 23018 NACA 23012 Embraer 121 Xingu NACA 23016 NACA 23012 Epervier Aviation Epervier NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Eshelman EF.100 Winglet NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Fairchild F11-1 Husky NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Fairey Gannett NACA 23018 NACA 23010 Fanaero-Chile Chincol NACA 23015 NACA 23009 Flaglor Scooter NACA 23012 NACA23012 Flight Dynamics Flightsail VIII NACA 23012 NACA 23012 FMA IA 31 Colibri NACA 23012 NACA 23012 FMA IA 45 Querandi NACA 23016 NACA 23010 FMA IA 46 Ranquel NACA 23012 NACA 23012 FMA IA 51 Tehuelche NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Focke Wulf Fw 190 NACA 23015.3 NACA 23009 Fokker T.V NACA 23017 NACA 23009 Found Centennial 100 NACA 23016 NACA 23012 Fournier RF3 NACA 23015 NACA 23012 Fournier RF4 NACA 23015 NACA 23012 Fournier RF5 NACA 23015 NACA 23012 Fournier RF7 NACA 23015 NACA 23012 Ganzavia GAK-22 Dino NACA 23018 NACA 23012 Gatard Statoplan AG 01 Aloutte NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Gatard Statoplan AG 02 Poussin NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Gatard Statoplan AG 05 Mesange NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Globe/Temco GC-1B Swift NACA 23015 NACA 23009 Goodyear GA-22A NACA 23018 NACA 23009 Grumman 21 Goose NACA 23015 NACA 23009 Grumman 36 F4F Wildcat NACA 23015 NACA 23009 Grumman 40 TBF Avenger NACA 23015 NACA 23009 Grumman 44 Widgeon NACA 23015 NACA 23009 Grumman 50 F6F Hellcat NACA 23015.6 NACA 23009 Grumman 58 F8F Bearcat NACA 23015 NACA 23009 Grumman 82 AF-2 Guardian NACA 23018 NACA 23012 HAL HJT-16 Kiran NACA 23015 NACA23012 HAL HT-2 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Handley Page 67 Hastings NACA 23021 NACA 23007 Handley Page 81 Hermes 4 NACA 23021 NACA 23007 Handley Page Marathon NACA 23018 NACA 23009 Hawker DeHavilland HDH-10 Enmoth NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Helio 250 Courier NACA 23012 NACA23012 Helio 395 Super Courier NACA 23012 NACA23012 Helio 500 Twin NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Helio 550 Stallion NACA 23012 NACA23012 Hollandair HA-001 Libel NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Hughes H-1 Racer NACA 23012 NACA 23006 Iberavia I-11 Peque NACA 23015 NACA 23009 Iberavia I-115 NACA 23015 NACA 23009 ICA IAR-821 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 ICA IAR-823 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 ICA IS-11 NACA 23015 NACA 23012 ICA IS-5 NACA 23015 NACA 23012 Interstate B-1A NACA 23012 NACA 23012 IPTN NU-200 Sikumbang NACA 23012 NACA 23012 IPTN NU-225 Sikumbang NACA 23015 NACA 23009 IPTN NU-260 Kumbang NACA 23015 NACA 23009 Jodel DR 1050 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Jurca MJ.2 Tempete NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Kolb Laser NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Lawhorn LA-3 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Lazor-Rautenstrach LR-1 NACA 0012 NACA 0009 Lefebvre MP.205 Busard NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Legrand-Simon LS.50 Dauphine NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Legrand-Simon LS.60 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Lemberger LD 20b NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Lobet-De-Rouvary Ganaobie 05 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Lockheed-Vega PV-1 Ventura NACA 23018 NACA 23009 LWD Zuraw NACA 23012 NACA 23012 MacFam SA 102.5 Cavalier NACA 23015 NACA 23012 Maestranza Central HF XX-02 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Malmo MFI-10 Vipan NACA 25012 NACA 25012 Maranda BM1-A Super Loisir NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Maranda BM6 Lark NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Markwalder Marabu NACA 23012 NACA 23009 Martin 162 PBM Mariner NACA 23020 NACA 23010 Martin 170 JRM-1 Mars NACA 23020 NACA 23012 Max Holste 250 Super Broussard NACA 23016 NACA 23012 Max Plan PF.204 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Mead Adventure NACA 23018 NACA 23012 Merkel Mark II NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Merville D.63 NACA 23015 NACA 23012 Meyers MAC 125-C NACA 23015 NACA 23009 Miles M.19 Master II NACA 23024 NACA 23006 Miles M.20 NACA 23021 NACA 23009 Miles M.25 Martinet NACA 23024 NACA 23009 Miles M.27 Master III NACA 23024 NACA 23006 Miles M.60 Marathon NACA 23018 NACA 23009 Miles M.71 Merchantman NACA 23018 NACA 23009 Miles M.9 Master I NACA 23024 NACA 23006 Mirage Celerity NACA 23015 NACA 23010 MKEK 5 NACA 23018 NACA 23012 Monocoupe Meteor NACA 23015 NACA 23012 Mudry CAP 10B NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Mudry CAP 20 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Murphy Renegade II NACA 23012 NACA 23012 NAC 1 Firecracker NACA 23012 NACA 23012 NAC 6 Fieldmaster NACA 23012 mod NACA 23012 NAC Freelance NACA 23012 mod NACA 23012 mod Nord 260 Super Broussard NACA 23016 NACA 23012 Nord 262 Fregate NACA 23016 NACA 23012 Olszewski-Obarewicz Aerosport NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Orlinski RO-7 Orlik NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Osprey Pereira GP3 Osprey II NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Piel CP.301 Emeraude NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Piel CP.604 Diamant NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Piel CP.750 Beryl NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Piel CP.80 Zef NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Piper PA-46 Malibu NACA 23015 NACA 23009 Pottier P.50 Bouvreuil NACA 23015 NACA 23012 PZL MD-12F NACA 23015 NACA 23009 PZL Mielec M-4 Tarpan NACA 23015 NACA 23012 PZL Mielec TS-8 Bies NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Questair Venture NACA 23017 NACA 23010 Reims F406 Caravan II NACA 23018 NACA 23012 Robertson SRX-1 Skylark NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Rockwell Commander 500/690 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Rollason Beta NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Ryan S-CW145 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Salvay-Stark Skyhopper NACA 23015 NACA 23012 San Jodel DR.1052 Excellence NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Saturn Meteor II NACA 23015 NACA 23012 Scheibe SF-23A Sperling NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Schempp-Hirth Milan GS.6 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Sintex 1310 Super Emeraude NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Scintex 250 Rubis NACA 23015 NACA 23009 Stark Sport-Aire II NACA 23012 NACA 23015 Stephens Akro NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Sud Aviation SE.2010 Armagnac NACA 23017 NACA 23010 Swearingen Merlin II NACA 23014.1 NACA 23012 SZD-4 Kania 2 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Tachihi R-53 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Tallmantz Phoenix NACA 23018 NACA 23012 Taylor Kits/Vector Twin-T NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Taylor Kits/Vector T-Craft NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Taylor Rapid Transit NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Taylor Titch NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Taylorcraft 19 Sportsman NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Taylorcraft BC-12 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Taylorcraft E-2 USA 35B USA 35B Taylorcraft F-21 NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Temco 33 Plebe/Buckaroo NACA 23015.4 NACA 23009 Transavia PL-12 Airtruk NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Transavia PL.11 Airtruck NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Vought F4U Corsair NACA 23015 NACA 23009 WAR Replicas Fw 190 NACA 23015 NACA 23012 Western PGK-1 Hirondelle NACA 23012 NACA 23012 Wideroe C.5 Polar NACA 23012 NACA 23012 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mark Langford" <n5...@hiwaay.net> > To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net> > Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2003 10:54 AM > Subject: Re: KR>airfoil design > > > Lloyd Schultz wrote: > > > > > of the most docile airplanes out there. I can't help thinking that > making > > a > > > "sweet"-flying wing is like baking a really good pastry...it's as much a > > result > > > of the chef's ability as the vitals used. No? > > > > I knew somebody would make this point. The aircraft factories that used > > this airfoil had a lot more expertise in taming aerodynamic problems than > > the guy who asked the question. I get the impression that anybody asking > > for airfoil advice probably isn't going to be a "chef" with a lot of > > ability. Now if he wants to learn all the tricks of the aero engineering > > trade, he's welcome to do it. He asked for opinions, I gave mine. He can > > do whatever he wants, but I can't fathom why anybody would want to > > reengineer the KR wing when one of the world's sharpest wing specialists > has > > already designed one especially for this airplane, with reduced drag and > > increased speed one of the top priorities, while maintaining the docile > > stall characteristics of the stock RAF48. Just my opinion though... > > > > Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL > > N56ML "at" hiwaay.net > > see KR2S project at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > see KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html
