I was thinking the message panel above the statusbar rather than the statusbar. The message panel is already kind of a general purpose messaging area. Although it is primarily used for object property display, it is also used to indicate file saves and other transient messages.
On 3/15/2017 10:50 AM, Kristoffer Ödmark wrote: > I like this. This seems like a good way. Althougt there are a lot of > unused space in my status bar ( the one that shows z: x and y, adn dx > and dy. Which was where i wanted some small tool status indication. > > On 03/15/2017 03:22 PM, Wayne Stambaugh wrote: >> Why not just use the current message panel? You could show the modifier >> keys and hotkeys for the current tool immediately after the tool is >> selected before any object action takes place. Once an object is >> selected by the current tool, it will just replace the tool help with >> the object properties as it currently does. This gives the user a chance >> to see the modifier keys before performing any actions. When the user >> learns the tool immediate hotkey, the tool help would no longer be seen >> because it would be replaced by the object properties immediately. I >> would think that once a user was comfortable enough to use the hotkey, >> they would already be aware of the modifier keys. Just food for >> thought. I'm not a be fan of using valuable screen area to display help >> information. >> >> On 3/15/2017 10:06 AM, Jon Evans wrote: >>> Yes, that's what I meant, it would be for the current mode, and would >>> change based on what you are doing. It would also be hide-able so that >>> advanced users get the screen real estate back. >>> >>> There are no problems with combined modifiers, you just list each action >>> in a different box. In fact, you could even have the modifiers change >>> the box, so when you hold down the Ctrl key, it shows you exactly what >>> will happen when you do various things with it held down >>> >>> Maybe once I have some more things done off my to-do list I will spend >>> some more time making a mockup of this. >>> >>> Best, >>> Jon >>> >>> On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 9:02 AM, Kristoffer Ödmark >>> <kristofferodmar...@gmail.com <mailto:kristofferodmar...@gmail.com>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Yes, you are correct, but putting the buttons and their function in >>> the same box would get problems with combined modifiers shift+ctrl >>> options etc. >>> >>> But I was thinking of only showing current mode and not all possible >>> modes at the same time. Mostly you would learn them anyway kinda >>> quick, you would only need to know they can be learned. by >>> indicating which buttons are available as modifiers in this tool. >>> >>> On 03/15/2017 02:54 PM, Jon Evans wrote: >>> >>> Hi Kristoffer, >>> >>> I didn't show in my mockup, but you could easily use a UI like >>> this to >>> show modifier keys info as well. >>> >>> -Jon >>> >>> On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 8:36 AM, Kristoffer Ödmark >>> <kristofferodmar...@gmail.com >>> <mailto:kristofferodmar...@gmail.com> >>> <mailto:kristofferodmar...@gmail.com >>> <mailto:kristofferodmar...@gmail.com>>> wrote: >>> >>> Hello Jon, >>> >>> I do not think that the hotkeys are a problem. The >>> right-click menu >>> shows how they are bound already and the right click menu is >>> adaptable. I personally like the way that works a lot. >>> >>> It is more a problem regarding the modifiers, Ie buttons >>> that must >>> be held while doing something, they are not selecting >>> stuff, but >>> modifiying already existing functionality, usually slightly. >>> >>> - Kristoffer >>> >>> On 03/15/2017 02:29 PM, Jon Evans wrote: >>> >>> Hi Kristoffer, John, >>> >>> I agree this is an important problem to solve. >>> >>> I am not convinced that this is the perfect solution, >>> but I >>> wanted to >>> share a way a commercial tool does it. >>> Here's a screenshot from Mentor Graphics Xpedition >>> showing what >>> I mean: >>> http://i.imgur.com/H0wDK0F.png >>> >>> At the bottom of the screen is a list of keyboard >>> shortcuts, >>> that change >>> based on what you are doing. So, when you are in "place >>> components" >>> mode the list is different than if you are routing a >>> track, for >>> example. The developers chose the most common things to >>> do for each >>> "tool" that can be active, and assigned them to >>> function-keys. >>> >>> Note that in Xpedition, the hotkeys themselves change, >>> i.e. the >>> icons on >>> the bottom of the screen always correspond to the >>> function keys >>> F1-F12. >>> But, even without adopting that scheme (which would >>> conflict >>> with some >>> of our existing hotkeys), we could use the UI concept >>> of a >>> larger "quick >>> reference" to hotkeys (I'm including mouse actions in >>> the >>> definition of >>> hotkeys here) at the bottom of the screen, for example a >>> quick >>> mockup: >>> http://i.imgur.com/wB0Yecy.png >>> >>> Then we would just need to define up to N hotkeys for >>> each tool >>> / tool >>> mode that should be hinted to the user. (Where N is some >>> number that >>> looks not too cramped) >>> >>> -Jon >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 7:11 AM, Kristoffer Ödmark >>> <kristofferodmar...@gmail.com >>> <mailto:kristofferodmar...@gmail.com> >>> <mailto:kristofferodmar...@gmail.com >>> <mailto:kristofferodmar...@gmail.com>> >>> <mailto:kristofferodmar...@gmail.com >>> <mailto:kristofferodmar...@gmail.com> >>> >>> <mailto:kristofferodmar...@gmail.com >>> <mailto:kristofferodmar...@gmail.com>>>> wrote: >>> >>> Yes, the status line is way to small it. However it >>> could >>> maybe be >>> used to show which modifiers are in use. Not what >>> they do. >>> >>> I believe that knowing which modifiers are in use >>> would be >>> enough, >>> because many modifiers would probably be very self >>> explanatory once >>> activated, for example the angle-snap, having a grid >>> snap etc. >>> >>> Then the idea of having an explanatory panel >>> available somehow >>> on-demand would probably be best. >>> >>> Attached is an idea mockup for putting on the left >>> side in the >>> status line. >>> >>> It shows when the arc tool is active and has ctrl >>> and shift >>> modifers >>> where ctrl is currently held and angle snap-active. >>> >>> >>> >>> On 03/15/2017 12:11 PM, John Beard wrote: >>> >>> Hi Kristoffer, >>> >>> I agree that the "secrecy" of KiCad shortcuts >>> is a >>> pretty major >>> issue. >>> It serves to make people good at KiCad think >>> it's great, >>> while new >>> users struggle (probably in silence) because >>> they don't know >>> there's a >>> better way. >>> >>> Expanding documentation is important here (he >>> says, not >>> having >>> documented his new features yet) but it's >>> unreasonable >>> to expect >>> users >>> to wade through hundreds of screens of prose to >>> be told >>> incidentally >>> that the arc tool snaps angles when you hold >>> control. >>> >>> I certainly think some sort of easily accessible >>> (at minimum >>> hotkey + >>> some sort of obvious visual affordance) >>> method for a >>> user to get >>> contextual help is very important. Ideally >>> something >>> that doesn't >>> break the user's flow. Popping a dialog that you >>> have to >>> dismiss >>> is a >>> little clunky, I feel. Perhaps some sort of >>> panel that >>> appears only >>> while you're holding a key down? >>> >>> I'm not a huge fan of the Inkscape-style status >>> line, >>> though it's >>> certainly better than nothing. It feels squeezed >>> to me, >>> since the >>> information is really more like a list of >>> possible >>> modifiers than a >>> one-liner. We do have a little area of the >>> status bar >>> that tells you >>> what tool you're in, but that's nowhere near big >>> enough >>> to naively >>> plonk screeds of text. >>> >>> tl;dr agree but no ideas yet! >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> John >>> >>> On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 6:34 PM, Kristoffer >>> Ödmark >>> <kristofferodmar...@gmail.com >>> <mailto:kristofferodmar...@gmail.com> >>> <mailto:kristofferodmar...@gmail.com >>> <mailto:kristofferodmar...@gmail.com>> >>> <mailto:kristofferodmar...@gmail.com >>> <mailto:kristofferodmar...@gmail.com> >>> >>> <mailto:kristofferodmar...@gmail.com >>> <mailto:kristofferodmar...@gmail.com>>>> wrote: >>> >>> Hello all! >>> >>> I just wanted to highlight an emerging >>> problem to >>> catch it >>> in its cradle. >>> >>> The new tool and dialog patches that has >>> been merged are >>> great. But they >>> also introduce secret functionaly, examples: >>> >>> Ctrl + click: highlights net ( modifier to >>> select >>> tool ) >>> ctrl + drag: snap angles in arc tool >>> shift + click: adds/removes to selection in >>> select mode >>> shift + scroll: changes increment values in >>> 3d-previewer >>> >>> These are the few examples I found right >>> now, what I >>> would >>> like to see is a >>> standardized way of informing the users >>> to this >>> before more >>> tools get these >>> hidden functionality. >>> >>> The way that current shortcuts are indicated >>> I think are >>> great ( the grey >>> text next to their selection in menus Maybe >>> we could >>> expand >>> on this to >>> create tooltips to the menus with a list of >>> modifier >>> keys >>> for the hovered >>> tool in the menu. >>> >>> Another way that Gimp uses is to put this >>> information at the >>> bottom >>> information bar, Maybe we could do that as >>> well by >>> modifying >>> the current >>> position information bar >>> >>> Yet another way would be to have tool >>> specific settings >>> given screen >>> real-estate, much in the way of gimp and >>> inkscape. >>> >>> At least I think this issue should be >>> addressed and >>> agreed >>> upon before tools >>> specify their different modifiers >>> willy-nilly all >>> over the >>> place and you >>> need a kicad-phd to remember them all. Just >>> having >>> an idea >>> on how to do it >>> can enable a good team-effort of >>> supporting it. >>> >>> -- >>> -Kristoffer >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Mailing list: >>> https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >>> <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers> >>> <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >>> <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers>> >>> <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >>> <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers> >>> <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >>> <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers>>> >>> Post to : >>> kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net >>> <mailto:kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net> >>> <mailto:kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net >>> <mailto:kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net>> >>> <mailto:kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net >>> <mailto:kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net> >>> <mailto:kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net >>> <mailto:kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net>>> >>> Unsubscribe : >>> https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >>> <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers> >>> <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >>> <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers>> >>> <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >>> <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers> >>> <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >>> <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers>>> >>> More help : >>> https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >>> <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp> >>> <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >>> <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp>> >>> <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >>> <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp> >>> <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >>> <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> -Kristoffer >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Mailing list: >>> https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >>> <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers> >>> <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >>> <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers>> >>> <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >>> <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers> >>> <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >>> <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers>>> >>> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net >>> <mailto:kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net> >>> <mailto:kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net >>> <mailto:kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net>> >>> <mailto:kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net >>> <mailto:kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net> >>> <mailto:kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net >>> <mailto:kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net>>> >>> Unsubscribe : >>> https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >>> <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers> >>> <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >>> <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers>> >>> <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >>> <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers> >>> <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >>> <https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers>>> >>> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >>> <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp> >>> <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >>> <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp>> >>> <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >>> <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp> >>> <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >>> <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> -Kristoffer >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> -Kristoffer >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >>> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net >>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >>> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net >> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers >> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >> > _______________________________________________ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
