On 05/17/2011 08:29 AM, Hugo Pereira Da Costa wrote: > Let me sum up before i go back and contemplate the change of culture > in kde. > >> Ultimately, I believe that the decision about what the default settings >> for Oxygen's "window drag" feature is Nuno (who designs oxygen) and me >> (who develops oxygen) to make (unless, of course, someone else wants to >> step in and take the job: this is open source). > > So the question is if he is even aware of the discussion. (no comment) > >> The reasons for the current defaults have already been motivated in >> this >> thread and elsewhere. >> As far as I'm concerned, unless Nuno thinks otherwise, this will not >> change. > > The only reason i got is we want it and we can make it. There was no > explanation why this feature is superios to alt + mousebutton.
Some of the reasons justifying the feature have actually already been discussed in this thread (by Martin), but must have been lost in translations: - it fits perfectly within oxygen, which makes no distinction between window decoration and window content (and does so since day one) - it gives a use to the many empty areas kde applications have - it improves user experience (thinks the designer and I agree with him) - it is far more discoverable that the Alt+drag feature The reasons why it is superior than the Alt+drag feature - you don't need to press Alt (sorry to state the obvious) - it only works on *empty areas* whereas Alt works everywhere (that does not actually make it superior, just different) - it is far more discoverable that the Alt+drag feature - it improves user experience > >> Among these reasons: the feature is actually working - in a consistent >> way -, for the vast >> majority of applications. >> (I think Todd's summary of the situation is quite comprehensive and >> correct with that respect, even though some people decided to simply >> ignore the corresponding emails) > > So you guys introduce unwanted, unwanted *by you* (see comments on "I like it, I like it not"). > annoying behaviour annoying *for you* (see comments "on I like it, I like it not"). > into unsuspecting > applications ... which is precisely the point of the widget style, to do things in a consistent way, across applications, without them needing to actually care about it (or suspect it). > . As an example all dockwidget using applications (Kontact, Kmail, > kdevelop, dolphin, konqueror ... ) where you drag the application > instead of > resizing the docks if you are just one pixel off. Resize it depending > on its > state and sometimes move it by a hundred or more pixel if i accidently > click > and move one pixel. > > You do that for all qt based applications from the outside. > > You call that a feature and answer with: (from another mail) so turn > it off . > > Remember it is not part of any standard kde option dialog. > You have to start > oxygen-settings to disable it for all those application that have > nothing in > common with oxygen. > This will change. The commit is ready, because I agree there is an issue there. Note that the issue was actually not posted by you (who obviously have far more constructive arguments), nor the suggestion made by you. > You ignore people telling you it is a problem with .... > >> author: johnmS2 >> Especially when one is using a typical notebook touchpad >> with tap-to-click enabled. I do not, and as soon as kde supports per-device default user profile (an idea which has already been discussed in a separate thread), I will gladly fine-tune the default behavior. > > You ignore people like me who have to drive their mouse with their > left hand > because of propblems with the arm and back. I am righthanded which > means i am > a bit clumsy using it. You ignore that i told you i trigger that feature > accidently. Your answer: > I do not ignore you, and I do not ignore either people who use the feature on a daily basis and do think it improved their user experience (some of these users having already manifested themselves in this thread). >> toddrme >> when we have some minor consistency issues, all from one class of >> application, that users are unlikely to notice unless they are >> specifically looking for it (most users aren't going to drag on the >> game board unless the game specifically calls for dragging). I would >> hardly call that a "mess". > >> Hugo: >> Among these reasons: the feature is actually working - in a consistent >> way -, for the vast >> majority of applications. I maintain this statement. >> (I think Todd's summary of the situation is quite comprehensive and >> correct with that respect, even though some people decided to simply >> ignore the corresponding emails) > > I especially like the "unlikely to notice" in light of a myriad of bug > reports > and even you guys acknowledging that this feature has problems. And > the "vast > majority of applications" where application include all qt based > applications > which can be totally unrelated to kde. Please provide numbers (or at least application names) to back-up your statement. I can easily cite 26 applications which I use dayly and with which there is no issue. > >> Whether people like it or not is a separate (and irrelevant) issue. >> This >> thread has already shown that for each person hating the feature you >> can >> find one loving it. > > Agreed. > >> To some extent, choices made by other toolkits (cocoa, gtk, whatever), >> other widgets styles, etc. are also unrelated and irrelevant. > > Absolutly agreed. > >> As was already stated, we will help fixing, either on the style level, >> or on the application level, the applications for which the window drag >> feature conflicts with normal use of the application (which has to be >> decided, in my oppinion by both apps and oxygen devs on a per >> application level), has we have already done in the past. > > And here is the killer. Which makes me really think kde has changed > over the > years. When i started people considered this an absolute nono. I was > even told > to not fix a REAL bug because it would break applications which would > have to > be adapted. So we lived with that bug. You guys introduce features > that break > apps and say it is ok. WE WILL FIX ALL THOSE APPS. Big words. > >> Feel free to forward to Oxygen all the related bug reports that app >> receive, we *will* address them (just like we did adress the original >> issue that started this otherwise overly highjacked thread). > > Remember this is about all qt applications. Will you fix my home > project if i > tell you to because that bug annoys me. > Will you fix all ruby/python/perl > whatever based applications that have problems with this feature? Will > you fix > all qt only kde unrelated projects that do not have a vast visibility. > > Will you? I have so far, and will continue, as I have stated already multiple times in this thread. The thing is (and I speak by experience, not by hypothesis, after having invested a considerable amount of my time in doing so) that the number of applications that oxygen actually breaks because of window dragging is small, notably because the underlying code is robust, and because the vast majority of the types of applications mentioned above, if written by the book, are not broken by oxygen (which is also written by the book). >> Visit http://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-devel#unsub to unsubscribe <<
