Dakota Surmonde wrote:
>
> On Sat, 23 Oct 1999, Jernej Zajc wrote:
> > If you can't accept that pin-ups can not be looked at as
> > objectification then please be honest and write down that
> > the subject is simply not debatable for you.
>
> Yes and no. So far the only thing that I can totally say for sure is that
> there are some pictures which are objectifying. One of these days, the
> conversation might get beyond that point, if it ever gets a chance to get
> beyond the
> yes-sexism-exists-no-we-aren't-talking-about-banning-porn-or-even-restricting-it
> stage.
Ok. Let's raise some points, mark them as *undebatable*, and see if we can
move on from debating them.
1. Sexism exists. It affects both genders.
2. 'Girlie pictures' offend and upset some (not all!) people. Of both genders.
(I use the term to include equivalent images of males. And I'm not interested
in
discussing what constitutes or doesn't constitute a 'girlie pic'.)
3. Symbols and icons have power.
4. We are not discussing censorship. We are not intending to censor.
So. Can everyone accept these as premises, from which we can /further/ the
discussion - and maybe bring it back towards 'how all this affects linux'?
> I'm still back on defining what the
> problem is, and then discussing what should be done about it. You're
> already fighting against it and I don't even know what I'm fighting on
> this front.
Yes. I'm still in problem-definition mode myself. Hopefully stating a few
non-arguables will help.. please.
> > If you understand roots of something you may be able to
> > deal with it better. Mind you it was a speculation not a
> > grounded fact.
>
> I spend a good bit of time trying to fidn the roots of things
That's what we're trying to do. Going into side-issues, and arguing
side-issues, is hindering us.
> > I am enjoying the debate. You should too. It's just a debate
> > not hardwork of saving the world.
>
> Yes and no. A fair chunk of it is just that I quit smoking and for the
> next week or so I'm going to be dealing with the panic attacks from hell.
> that's life.
When it's productive, I'm enjoying it. When it's being dragged into
rehashing stuff that most of us in the debate have already said 'it's
not about that', it gets very very tiring.
As Vinnie said:
"How many times do I have to say this: It's not about the clothes"
We're not debating whether pornography is or is not evil. I *LIKE*
pornography, especially really nice stuff of .. ahem.
We're interested in the *symbol* of the 'girlie-pic' and what it
represents and whether it has power and what that power is.
Jenn V.
--
Humans are the only species to feed and house entirely separate species
for no reason other than the pleasure of their company. Why?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Jenn Vesperman http://www.simegen.com/~jenn/
************
[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
