Zeev, On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 3:50 PM, Zeev Suraski <z...@zend.com> wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Anthony Ferrara [mailto:ircmax...@gmail.com] >> Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2016 8:15 PM >> To: internals@lists.php.net >> Subject: [PHP-DEV] Re: [RFC] [Draft] Adopt Code of Conduct >> >> All, >> >> On Mon, Jan 4, 2016 at 4:06 PM, Anthony Ferrara <ircmax...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> There has been some discussion asking for a split of the RFC into two. >> I do not believe that this is a good idea, because the CoC is useless >> without >> some sort of resolution strategy (without *anything*). And if we do need >> to >> do something (which I firmly believe), then why not do it right the first >> time. I >> am more than willing to evolve this proposal significantly (it's no where >> near a >> final form). This discussion should help it evolve. > > First, I firmly believe that having a CoC - without anything extra - is > anything but useless. Values go a long way. Telling people what you expect > of them isn't only the first step towards obtaining that behavior - it's by > far the most important step. I suspect anybody who has kids (or that has a > reasonably fresh memory of being a kid himself) should be able to vouch for > that, and again, I'm bringing up the thesis that the vast majority of us > here follow the law not because we're afraid of what would happen if we > don't - but because it's the right thing to do.
We already have that: https://lwn.net/Articles/452278/ The point is many people believe that does not constitute a code of conduct. It is a worth while thing to have, but it doesn't make the assurances to others that the project takes bad behavior, harassment and discrimination seriously. And I agree with you about not doing something because it isn't right. However, I'm not attempting to codify what's "right" here. Instead, it's about communicating to others that we take these things seriously and hence hold each other to a standard. And if we don't have any means at all of holding ourselves to said standard, what use is the standard? > Secondly, if we do want to add an extra layer, having a resolution strategy > does not have to include penalties - neither proposed ones nor the > jurisdiction to impose ones. If the RFC stopped at structuring how people > can bring up issues and have them discussed and mediated, I doubt the RFC > would be nearly as controversial as it is right now. I think that the resolution strategy needs to have some sort of penalty, up to and including removal from the project. Otherwise what's the point of the resolution strategy? The worst thing we can do is put up a resolution path that people just say "so? why should I care?". > The problems begin as soon as we try to create some sort of a > mini-judicial-body, that has substantial powers, governs based on loosely > written rules, has zero tools and experience in getting to the bottom of > things or determining the truth between two or more quarrelling parties. > Thinking we can do that when we failed agreeing on infinitely simpler things > is remarkably optimistic. I'm not saying the current team I have proposed is good. I'm not saying we need to be firm with it. However, I think time and time again it's been proven that the court of public opinion is a poor judge of these types of situations. The recent edits that I have been making to the RFC reflect the reduction in power of the team significantly. What I do want to keep is a safe and private place for these resolutions to occur in. In extremely significant cases decisions will need to be public, but with a private team like this at least the information gathering step can be done in a non-biased manner with a team. > I disagree we NEED to do something. PHP is not in a situation where it's in > an absolute need of a CoC, and the fact it's thriving without one and that > nobody appears to be coming up with examples as to why we must have one > beyond future-proofing attests to that. Yes, it's not perfect - but as Stas > said, that RFC isn't a magic wand that would make it perfect. That said, I > think adopting a CoC is a good idea, much like I teach my daughters what's > right and what's wrong without telling them what would happen if they don't > follow my guidance. Whenever I have to resort to penalties (which I'm happy > to say rarely happens) - I've failed, and I virtually always regret it. I don't believe we literally need to do something in the sense that the project will die if we don't. With that said, I do believe that adopting the right one will do a lot of good for the project and community. So it's not a life or death need, I would say it's something we should definitely try to do. > I'm still interested in hearing more about the four explicit threats of > violence you mentioned. As I said before, I do not wish to discuss my personal matters in public. I only said that because there was implication on list that nothing has ever happened before, and I was showing that just my experience should act as a counterpoint to that. Thanks for the feedback and discussion Anthony -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
