Hello Wez,
keeping the discussion on this list is a major mistake. And it is
actually
the reason why everyone outside this list is against it. And whether you
read blogs or not does not interest anybody at all - unless you are going
to
comment on every single blog that mentions PHP and CLA. So far PHP is open
source! Respect this please!! Open means open!!!
I am crossposting to internals again. People should know what is going on.
Otherwise we could simply sign NDAs and be done.
marcus
Saturday, February 2, 2008, 6:36:17 AM, you wrote:
On Feb 1, 2008, at 10:24 PM, Steph Fox wrote:
Wez,
The only difference between my initial proposal, the one Ben Ramsey
posted and this one from Marcus is that they're getting more
complex, *without anyone actually discussing anything at all*.
On the contrary, there's been plenty of discussion going on. Despite
my request that we keep the discussion on this list, people have been
talking to each other in real life, on the phone, talking on IRC, IM,
posting thoughts and comments to blogs and so forth. Some comments
positive, some negative, but discussion nonetheless.
I've been making an effort to read the various blog entries, even
those in foreign languages (thanks to a combination of blog searching
tools and google translation tools) and keep an eye on IRC when I have
a spare minute or two.
... He had a response from Jay, who said this had already been
discussed. According to him,
"There was some dissent among members about the core and the spec/
API docs being non-CLA'd which is why the proposal is currently the
way it is. I know that various legal teams had concerns about PDO
core not being under CLA, but if a case is made in the community for
this, perhaps minds may change."
Now you're saying there's no problem with this approach? Where's the
real discussion going on?
No, I didn't say that there's no problem, I said that this sounds
reasonable.
For example, a problem with this general solution is still that
database experts from multiple sources would not be able to directly
co-operate on the PDO core. However, it sounds to me like a
reasonable (though sub-optimal, from a technical and productivity
point of view) compromise to be able to accept feedback and
suggestions and have those gated through the PDO core maintainers.
That's just my opinion; I certainly don't speak for anyone else.
It's not a bad thing per se to separate PECL and PHP, but it does
beg the question of how to approach distributions/snaps, which is
AFAICS the only reason anything not essential to PHP itself is in
the core in the first place. Nobody's sat down and worked it through
properly, despite Lukas' repeated requests.
One reason that no one has discussed that is because it is not
directly related to the question of PDO and how to best get the
vendors involved. Once we've figured that out, we can iron out the
details of the implementation.
I think if we did this it would have to be as part of a broader
approach, with a full re-evaluation of the PHP/PECL relationship,
some hard thinking about distribution mechanisms for PECL, and some
serious decisions about setup recommendations. It's really not the
quick fix it appears to be... and making it so without putting that
effort into it would hit the PHP userbase harder than anyone else.
And that's well beyond the scope of PDO. Remember, one of the
concerns raised by the community was that this business would
interfere with the rest of PHP; the suggestions we've made so far have
been intentionally very focused to avoid getting into that.
Again; first let's see if we can find an acceptable way to take their
contributions before moving on to those finer points.
BTW I'm still waiting to hear about the other alternatives that were
discussed behind our backs, and the objections against them... and I
say 'behind our backs' simply because nobody seems to want to tell us!
We talked about whether the various vendors could work on various
combinations of pieces of the code if they were or were not CLA'd.
I'm sure you don't really need me to list the various combinations of
CLA, not CLA, in PHP, in PECL, outside of PHP, and hosted individually
by the vendors. It was not a very exciting discussion.
The main realization was that the vendors could not co-operate with
each other on code without a CLA in place, and that some of them would
not be able to co-operate with the community without a CLA in place.
--Wez.
Best regards,
Marcus
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