On Sat, Mar 5, 2022 at 2:29 AM Maxime Veber <nek....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Guys, there's no place for debate here. > > You may not like how Marco is talking to you but he's deeply right. > > I'll be asking only one thing: what help do you need for a warning to > appear on the PHP website. > - Pull request with a flag? > - Content for an article saying the PHP community stands with Ukraine and > demands the end of any fight in Ukraine? > > Debate has no place here, let's start concrete action please. > > With hope and sadness, > Maxime > > *–* > Maxime > > > Le sam. 5 mars 2022 à 10:58, Marco Pivetta <ocram...@gmail.com> a écrit : > >> On Sat, 5 Mar 2022, 04:31 Kris Craig, <kris.cr...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> > >> > >> > On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 4:51 AM Marco Pivetta <ocram...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> > >> >> Hey Christian, >> >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 1:41 PM <naitsi...@e.mail.de> wrote: >> >> >> >> > this is exactly the problem. Russia did not just invaded Ukrainia >> out of >> >> > nowhere. The story started in 2014 with the illegal coup d'etat >> against >> >> > Viktor Yanukovych and its acceptance by the western countries. Or >> even >> >> > earlier, with the eastern extension of the EU and the Nato, to get >> >> Ukriane >> >> > on their side, stoping the political neutrality of Ukraine between >> >> Russia >> >> > and the western. >> >> > >> >> > As you see, it is not as simple. Should we start a discussion now? I >> do >> >> > not think so. It would not help anybody. Wars or conflicts are never >> >> > simple. Usually there's a long story. >> >> > Taking ones side in political conflicts will separate the community >> for >> >> > sure. >> >> > >> >> > Please do not start that. >> >> > >> >> > You and anybody else can show their political position on twitter, >> >> > facebook or elsewhere. We do not need to do that on php.net. >> >> > >> >> >> >> Please GTFO: we don't need more of Putin's propaganda over here, as >> >> they're >> >> busy enough with butchering civilians over there. >> >> >> >> Greets, >> >> >> >> Marco Pivetta >> >> >> >> http://twitter.com/Ocramius >> >> >> >> http://ocramius.github.io/ >> > >> > >> > I find this deeply, deeply disturbing. >> > >> >> Good: time for some self introspection then. >> >> As for the rest of the thread, I am deeply ashamed of the state of >> php-internals. >> >> https://youtube.com/watch?v=Gfsiw2pf_Y0&time=1h44m48s >> >> I will take (continue taking) action elsewhere: the fact that some of you >> are "disturbed" by my message, means that it came through as intended. >> >> > >> > "Debate has no place here"?! Since when? Seriously, this is just getting downright creepy. I think just about everybody here agrees that Putin is a war criminal and an all-around ass who deserves to be brought to justice for his many crimes, including those against Ukraine. However, there is legitimate disagreement over the scope of our response. This is a perfect example of what I've been talking about: You have some people advocating a general message of support for the victims of the conflict, but then there are others like you who advocate a more political response like making demands and condemnations. Given that PHP has never done this in the past, despite many occasions that easily compare to what's happening now, doing so now I fear would send a mixed message. Broaden the statement to condemn past invasions like Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, and Vietnam, then I'd be ok with it, though I still question the appropriateness of including any political messages not directly pertaining to internet freedom on the PHP website. It just makes me nervous because it sets a precedent that could be very easily abused in the future and all-but certainly will be. Looks to me like there's plenty of room for debate here. To be clear, I would wholeheartedly, vehemently object to ANY decision being made about this one way or the other without our usual process of open and thorough debate. Declaring that there will be no debate is basically the equivalent of saying, "I've decided we're doing things my way and you can all suck it." Seriously, it felt really, really disrespectful and exclusionary. I'm always weary of anyone who demands that a group decision be made without discussion or debate. Not only does that fly in the face of this community's longstanding tradition, but it also completely ignores the glaring irony that "Debate has no place here" is a phrase you'd expect to hear uttered in Russia, not on this listserv.
