Dear Herman (if I may), I think we all agree that making Tamil Brahmi roughly contemporaneous with Aśoka's inscriptions is not problematic. That a form of Tamil existed before them is not problematic either unless one assumes that there was no culture of any kind before contacts of the South with Buddhism through Asoka. To clarify: my argument was the opposite of what you took me to say : the existence of writing is consistent with the existence of literature. Not the other way around, as the example of Vedic Sanskrit shows. I also think many of us agree with you that Sangam literature has often been dated on shaky grounds. That Sanskrit, even before kāvya, probably interacted with Tamil is also clear. But what needs to be explained and historicized is the specific features of Tamil literature, such as its extreme formal and psychological sophistication, in some cases its moral dimension -- all the more with the loss of much of kaikkilai and peruntinai (diacritics omitted) -- and, later, its intimate relation to Cittanta Caivam. None of this is accounted for by assuming wholesale borrowing for the mere sake of identity formation. I do think, like, I think, many of us do, that the Sattasai and parts of Sangam literature should be compared more closely, as you began to do. But the differences need to be accounted for, not just the similarities. I honestly do not care when Sangam literature was written. As I explained in my papers on other subjects, priority is not my priority, because it often pushes the analysis of the texts in their own terms into the background. And Tamil literature deserves more close reading. Kind regards, Satyanad
Le 29 décembre 2025 21:03:22 GMT+05:30, "Tieken, H.J.H. (Herman)" <[email protected]> a écrit : Dear Dr. Satyanad Kichenassamy, I do not intend to start a long discussion about the excavations. So this is the last thing I want to say about this topic, which I regret to have started myself. To begin with, everything about the dating of the excavated sites is controversial. This at least, is what I gathered from the earlier reports about the dating (However, again, only articles in papers, not in peerreviewed journals). There is going on a lot of juggling with dates. The earliest Tamil-Brāhmī inscriptions edited by Mahadevan are from the (beginning, middle or end of the) 2nd c. BC. 1950 minus 2300 = 375 BC, and, if I understand you properly, there are scholars who want to push the inscriptions even further back by 2 or 3 centuries. Note that Aśoka's Minor Rock Edict 2 is about founding brahmin settlements in the South (but not as far south as Tamilnadu). These brahmins brought with them their script and their textual tradition, which at the time consisted mainly of learned, technical, treatises on sacrifice, including Mīmāṃsā. The author of the article speaks of a literate civilisation. In the article itself only graffiti are mentioned, which is no evidence of the existence of a fictional literature, written or not (pace Pollock). Do I understand you correctly that you use the existence of Caṅkam literature between the 3rd c. BC and the 3rd c. AD as evidence of a literate civilisation here: literature implies a literate culture? By the way, Caṅkam poetry is definitely a written literature; its "forerunner" is Hāla's Sattasaī, which in its turn is inspired by the Kāmasūtra (pace Tieken). With kind regards, Herman Herman Tieken 's-Herenstraat 66 3155 SL Maasland The Netherlands 00 31 (0)10 7617502 00 (0)6 14652798 website: hermantieken.com The Aśoka Inscriptions: Analysing a corpus, New Delhi: Primus Books, 2023. https://primusbooks.com/ancient/the-asoka-inscriptions-analysing-a-corpus-by-herman-tieken/ Classified as Internal | Intern Van: Satyanad KICHENASSAMY <[email protected]> Verzonden: maandag 29 december 2025 15:16 Aan: Tieken, H.J.H. (Herman) <[email protected]>; Tieken, H.J.H. (Herman) via INDOLOGY <[email protected]>; indology list <[email protected]>; Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan <[email protected]> Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] The young guns of archaeology: Meet the team unearthing Tamil Nadu's past Like everyone else, I am waiting for the investigators' report but it seems to me that (1) all agree that there are Tamil Brahmi inscriptions that could be as old as ca. 2300 BP, not BC. BP = before present, where present = 1950 by convention. (2) the controversy is about whether one can push them 2 or 3 centuries further back. (3) the existence of a literate culture (= one that uses writing) is consistent with the existence of a literature. This may have been a forerunner of Sangam literature. (4) all this is consistent with a sophisticated material culture and exchanges with the Mediterranean etc, well before the Pallavas, again, not controversial. Best, Satyanad Kichenassamy Le 29 décembre 2025 16:22:57 GMT+05:30, "Tieken, H.J.H. (Herman) via INDOLOGY" <[email protected]> a écrit : As a scholar (admittedly my scholarship in this matter is heavily disputed) who dates Tamil Caṅkam poetry not earlier than the post-Pallava Pāṇṭiyas I am naturally interested to see what archeologists make of Tamilnadu in the early pre-Pallava period. Unfortunately, all the information I have access to is formed by press releases of the type kindly provided by Palaniappan to this list. However, I don't know what to make of it. For instance, on the basis of Keeladi iron would have been introduced in Tamilnadu between 2953 and 3345 BC, but furtheron the material from that site is said to date back "more than 2000 years". How many more years? Earlier reports posted by Palaniappan on this list were about criticism of the dating of the archeological sites, but as coming from North India the arguments were treated as enemy fire. However, what I am for personal reasons in particular interested in is the claim in the introduction of the report that the excavations reflect a literate (sic) Tamil. civilisation, in which I read an argument to stick to the date of Caṅkam poetry between the 3rd c. BC and the 3rd c. AD. How is "literate" defined here? Herman Herman Tieken 's-Herenstraat 66 3155 SL Maasland The Netherlands 00 31 (0)10 7617502 00 (0)6 14652798 website: hermantieken.com The Aśoka Inscriptions: Analysing a corpus, New Delhi: Primus Books, 2023. https://primusbooks.com/ancient/the-asoka-inscriptions-analysing-a-corpus-by-herman-tieken/ Classified as Internal | Intern Van: INDOLOGY <[email protected]> namens Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan via INDOLOGY <[email protected]> Verzonden: maandag 29 december 2025 07:39 Aan: indology list <[email protected]> Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] The young guns of archaeology: Meet the team unearthing Tamil Nadu's past Some Indologists may find this article interesting. https://www.theweek.in/theweek/specials/2025/12/27/the-young-guns-of-archaeology-meet-the-team-unearthing-tamil-nadus-past.html Regards, Palaniappan ********************************************** Satyanad KICHENASSAMY Professor of Mathematics Laboratoire de Mathématiques de Reims (CNRS, UMR9008) and GREI (EPHE-Paris and Sorbonne-Université) Université de Reims Champagne-Ardenne F-51687 Reims Cedex 2 France Web: https://www.normalesup.org/~kichenassamy ********************************************** ********************************************** Satyanad KICHENASSAMY Professor of Mathematics Laboratoire de Mathématiques de Reims (CNRS, UMR9008) and GREI (EPHE-Paris and Sorbonne-Université) Université de Reims Champagne-Ardenne F-51687 Reims Cedex 2 France Web: https://www.normalesup.org/~kichenassamy ********************************************** Le 29 décembre 2025 21:03:22 GMT+05:30, "Tieken, H.J.H. (Herman)" <[email protected]> a écrit : >Dear Dr. Satyanad Kichenassamy, > >I do not intend to start a long discussion about the excavations. So this is >the last thing I want to say about this topic, which I regret to have started >myself. > >To begin with, everything about the dating of the excavated sites is >controversial. This at least, is what I gathered from the earlier reports >about the dating (However, again, only articles in papers, not in peerreviewed >journals). > >There is going on a lot of juggling with dates. The earliest Tamil-Brāhmī >inscriptions edited by Mahadevan are from the (beginning, middle or end of >the) 2nd c. BC. 1950 minus 2300 = 375 BC, and, if I understand you properly, >there are scholars who want to push the inscriptions even further back by 2 or >3 centuries. Note that Aśoka's Minor Rock Edict 2 is about founding brahmin >settlements in the South (but not as far south as Tamilnadu). These brahmins >brought with them their script and their textual tradition, which at the time >consisted mainly of learned, technical, treatises on sacrifice, including >Mīmāṃsā. > >The author of the article speaks of a literate civilisation. In the article >itself only graffiti are mentioned, which is no evidence of the existence of a >fictional literature, written or not (pace Pollock). Do I understand you >correctly that you use the existence of Caṅkam literature between the 3rd c. >BC and the 3rd c. AD as evidence of a literate civilisation here: literature >implies a literate culture? By the way, Caṅkam poetry is definitely a written >literature; its "forerunner" is Hāla's Sattasaī, which in its turn is inspired >by the Kāmasūtra (pace Tieken). > >With kind regards, Herman > > > > > > >Herman Tieken >'s-Herenstraat 66 >3155 SL Maasland >The Netherlands >00 31 (0)10 7617502 >00 (0)6 14652798 >website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/> > >The Aśoka Inscriptions: Analysing a corpus, New Delhi: Primus Books, 2023. >https://primusbooks.com/ancient/the-asoka-inscriptions-analysing-a-corpus-by-herman-tieken/ > > > >Classified as Internal | Intern >________________________________ >Van: Satyanad KICHENASSAMY <[email protected]> >Verzonden: maandag 29 december 2025 15:16 >Aan: Tieken, H.J.H. (Herman) <[email protected]>; Tieken, H.J.H. >(Herman) via INDOLOGY <[email protected]>; indology list ><[email protected]>; Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan <[email protected]> >Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] The young guns of archaeology: Meet the team >unearthing Tamil Nadu's past > >Like everyone else, I am waiting for the investigators' report but it seems >to me that >(1) all agree that there are Tamil Brahmi inscriptions that could be as old as >ca. 2300 BP, not BC. BP = before present, where present = 1950 by convention. >(2) the controversy is about whether one can push them 2 or 3 centuries >further back. >(3) the existence of a literate culture (= one that uses writing) is >consistent with the existence of a literature. This may have been a forerunner >of Sangam literature. >(4) all this is consistent with a sophisticated material culture and exchanges >with the Mediterranean etc, well before the Pallavas, again, not controversial. > >Best, >Satyanad Kichenassamy > > > >Le 29 décembre 2025 16:22:57 GMT+05:30, "Tieken, H.J.H. (Herman) via INDOLOGY" ><[email protected]> a écrit : >As a scholar (admittedly my scholarship in this matter is heavily disputed) >who dates Tamil Caṅkam poetry not earlier than the post-Pallava Pāṇṭiyas I am >naturally interested to see what archeologists make of Tamilnadu in the early >pre-Pallava period. Unfortunately, all the information I have access to is >formed by press releases of the type kindly provided by Palaniappan to this >list. However, I don't know what to make of it. For instance, on the basis of >Keeladi iron would have been introduced in Tamilnadu between 2953 and 3345 BC, >but furtheron the material from that site is said to date back "more than 2000 >years". How many more years? Earlier reports posted by Palaniappan on this >list were about criticism of the dating of the archeological sites, but as >coming from North India the arguments were treated as enemy fire. > >However, what I am for personal reasons in particular interested in is the >claim in the introduction of the report that the excavations reflect a >literate (sic) Tamil. civilisation, in which I read an argument to stick to >the date of Caṅkam poetry between the 3rd c. BC and the 3rd c. AD. How is >"literate" defined here? > >Herman > > >Herman Tieken >'s-Herenstraat 66 >3155 SL Maasland >The Netherlands >00 31 (0)10 7617502 >00 (0)6 14652798 >website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/> > >The Aśoka Inscriptions: Analysing a corpus, New Delhi: Primus Books, 2023. >https://primusbooks.com/ancient/the-asoka-inscriptions-analysing-a-corpus-by-herman-tieken/ > > > >Classified as Internal | Intern >________________________________ >Van: INDOLOGY <[email protected]> namens Sudalaimuthu >Palaniappan via INDOLOGY <[email protected]> >Verzonden: maandag 29 december 2025 07:39 >Aan: indology list <[email protected]> >Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] The young guns of archaeology: Meet the team unearthing >Tamil Nadu's past > > >Some Indologists may find this article interesting. > > > >https://www.theweek.in/theweek/specials/2025/12/27/the-young-guns-of-archaeology-meet-the-team-unearthing-tamil-nadus-past.html > > > >Regards, > >Palaniappan > >********************************************** >Satyanad KICHENASSAMY >Professor of Mathematics >Laboratoire de Mathématiques de Reims (CNRS, UMR9008) > and GREI (EPHE-Paris and Sorbonne-Université) >Université de Reims Champagne-Ardenne >F-51687 Reims Cedex 2 >France >Web: https://www.normalesup.org/~kichenassamy >********************************************** ********************************************** Satyanad KICHENASSAMY Professor of Mathematics Laboratoire de Mathématiques de Reims (CNRS, UMR9008) and GREI (EPHE-Paris and Sorbonne-Université) Université de Reims Champagne-Ardenne F-51687 Reims Cedex 2 France Web: https://www.normalesup.org/~kichenassamy **********************************************
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