Dear Dr. Satyanad Kichenassamy, I do not intend to start a long discussion about the excavations. So this is the last thing I want to say about this topic, which I regret to have started myself.
To begin with, everything about the dating of the excavated sites is controversial. This at least, is what I gathered from the earlier reports about the dating (However, again, only articles in papers, not in peerreviewed journals). There is going on a lot of juggling with dates. The earliest Tamil-Brāhmī inscriptions edited by Mahadevan are from the (beginning, middle or end of the) 2nd c. BC. 1950 minus 2300 = 375 BC, and, if I understand you properly, there are scholars who want to push the inscriptions even further back by 2 or 3 centuries. Note that Aśoka's Minor Rock Edict 2 is about founding brahmin settlements in the South (but not as far south as Tamilnadu). These brahmins brought with them their script and their textual tradition, which at the time consisted mainly of learned, technical, treatises on sacrifice, including Mīmāṃsā. The author of the article speaks of a literate civilisation. In the article itself only graffiti are mentioned, which is no evidence of the existence of a fictional literature, written or not (pace Pollock). Do I understand you correctly that you use the existence of Caṅkam literature between the 3rd c. BC and the 3rd c. AD as evidence of a literate civilisation here: literature implies a literate culture? By the way, Caṅkam poetry is definitely a written literature; its "forerunner" is Hāla's Sattasaī, which in its turn is inspired by the Kāmasūtra (pace Tieken). With kind regards, Herman Herman Tieken 's-Herenstraat 66 3155 SL Maasland The Netherlands 00 31 (0)10 7617502 00 (0)6 14652798 website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/> The Aśoka Inscriptions: Analysing a corpus, New Delhi: Primus Books, 2023. https://primusbooks.com/ancient/the-asoka-inscriptions-analysing-a-corpus-by-herman-tieken/ Classified as Internal | Intern ________________________________ Van: Satyanad KICHENASSAMY <[email protected]> Verzonden: maandag 29 december 2025 15:16 Aan: Tieken, H.J.H. (Herman) <[email protected]>; Tieken, H.J.H. (Herman) via INDOLOGY <[email protected]>; indology list <[email protected]>; Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan <[email protected]> Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] The young guns of archaeology: Meet the team unearthing Tamil Nadu's past Like everyone else, I am waiting for the investigators' report but it seems to me that (1) all agree that there are Tamil Brahmi inscriptions that could be as old as ca. 2300 BP, not BC. BP = before present, where present = 1950 by convention. (2) the controversy is about whether one can push them 2 or 3 centuries further back. (3) the existence of a literate culture (= one that uses writing) is consistent with the existence of a literature. This may have been a forerunner of Sangam literature. (4) all this is consistent with a sophisticated material culture and exchanges with the Mediterranean etc, well before the Pallavas, again, not controversial. Best, Satyanad Kichenassamy Le 29 décembre 2025 16:22:57 GMT+05:30, "Tieken, H.J.H. (Herman) via INDOLOGY" <[email protected]> a écrit : As a scholar (admittedly my scholarship in this matter is heavily disputed) who dates Tamil Caṅkam poetry not earlier than the post-Pallava Pāṇṭiyas I am naturally interested to see what archeologists make of Tamilnadu in the early pre-Pallava period. Unfortunately, all the information I have access to is formed by press releases of the type kindly provided by Palaniappan to this list. However, I don't know what to make of it. For instance, on the basis of Keeladi iron would have been introduced in Tamilnadu between 2953 and 3345 BC, but furtheron the material from that site is said to date back "more than 2000 years". How many more years? Earlier reports posted by Palaniappan on this list were about criticism of the dating of the archeological sites, but as coming from North India the arguments were treated as enemy fire. However, what I am for personal reasons in particular interested in is the claim in the introduction of the report that the excavations reflect a literate (sic) Tamil. civilisation, in which I read an argument to stick to the date of Caṅkam poetry between the 3rd c. BC and the 3rd c. AD. How is "literate" defined here? Herman Herman Tieken 's-Herenstraat 66 3155 SL Maasland The Netherlands 00 31 (0)10 7617502 00 (0)6 14652798 website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/> The Aśoka Inscriptions: Analysing a corpus, New Delhi: Primus Books, 2023. https://primusbooks.com/ancient/the-asoka-inscriptions-analysing-a-corpus-by-herman-tieken/ Classified as Internal | Intern ________________________________ Van: INDOLOGY <[email protected]> namens Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan via INDOLOGY <[email protected]> Verzonden: maandag 29 december 2025 07:39 Aan: indology list <[email protected]> Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] The young guns of archaeology: Meet the team unearthing Tamil Nadu's past Some Indologists may find this article interesting. https://www.theweek.in/theweek/specials/2025/12/27/the-young-guns-of-archaeology-meet-the-team-unearthing-tamil-nadus-past.html Regards, Palaniappan ********************************************** Satyanad KICHENASSAMY Professor of Mathematics Laboratoire de Mathématiques de Reims (CNRS, UMR9008) and GREI (EPHE-Paris and Sorbonne-Université) Université de Reims Champagne-Ardenne F-51687 Reims Cedex 2 France Web: https://www.normalesup.org/~kichenassamy **********************************************
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