Thanks for the clarification.
First of all I'm not a system adminstrator. I've never installed or managed
an IMAP or IMP service. I have no idea how any of these things actually work
or what protocols they actually. I'm just a frustrated user trying to get
answers that my hosting provider doesn't seem to be able to provide. If I'm
in the wrong place please let me know. However I think I understand now.
Having said all that I'm a 25+ year systems engineer working at the highest
levels of scientific research. So I'm not stupid either ;-)
So let me summarize: IMAP is a protocol and an IMAP server listens on port
143 for things that talk IMAP. I'm assuming that an IMAP server also has a
database (filesystem only probably) where the actual data is stored. IMP is
a front end to IMAP which provides webmail interface capabilities. So, when
a client connects to a hosting provider who is offering IMAP on port 143
then the client is pretty much left on its own to present to the user a
model that it considers user-friendly. In the case of my iPhone and Webmail
(when properly configured), when I delete a message using its interface it
is actually sending a COPY (to Trash mailbox) command, followed by an
EXPUNGE (from source mailbox) command. Whereas the other clients (Outlook,
Outlook Express, Windows Mail) are simply sending a MARK AS DELETED command.
Now in the case of Gmail since clients connect to a different port I'm going
to assume there is an intervening layer they are providing which straightens
all this mess up and behaves in one consistent way no matter what junk a
client sends. This is where protocol messages get "translated" if you like.
One person on this list suggests that there is a way to configure IMAP
client behavior via horde/imp/config/prefs.php. If this is the case, I would
really like to explore this more. But it also implies that IMP intervenes in
a generalized way with all IMAP clients that I still don't understand.
Thanks to all for the help.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jochen Roderburg" <roderb...@uni-koeln.de>
To: "E. John Messersmith III" <e...@ejm3.net>
Cc: <imp@lists.horde.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 2:52 AM
Subject: Re: [imp] Deleted messages not moved to trash from client
Zitat von "E. John Messersmith III" <e...@ejm3.net>:
Well, I don't know what Gmail is doing either but the iPhone gets it
right
in all cases and all clients get it right when using Gmail. I'm
not being angry here just very frustrated. I don't know how I can be any
clearer. It is either a configuration parameter of IMAP or Horde or both.
Webmail - which I think is also part of the Horde project - gets it right
too! So what is it doing? I go to Mail Options->Deleting and Moving
Messages and I simply check the option "When deleting messages, move
them to your Trash folder instead of marking them as deleted?" I select
a message and click the Delete link. No marking for deletion; no
counting; no nothing - just a simple move from one folder to another -
everything is still in one Mailbox. So the "delete" command simply gets
translated (or is made equivalent to) a "move" to the trash folder
command. The client doesn't have to do anything. As long as the server
moves the message to the trash folder the new state is simply reflected
(updated) in the client. Why is this so difficult to understand? Is
there something obvious I'm missing?
So my question remains: given that I have selected the correct Webmail
option (and set the corresponding option in all my clients), why is it
when a remote IMAP client (Outlook, Outlook Express, Windows Mail)
executes a "delete" command and that command is received by the IMAP
server is it not translated into a "move" to the trash folder command?
Sorry to say that, but you actually are missing quite a lot. ;-)
Your cited words seem to indicate that you totally misunderstand how the
IMAP functions work.
There is no such such thing as a simple "delete command", nothing gets
translated on the server site, in fact the concept of a "trash folder" is
totally unknown to the IMAP protocol and on IMAP servers.
All that "trash folder magic" is a thing that the various clients handle
on their own, be it native Windows Clients or Webmail-Clients like IMP.
And when you want several clients to behave the same way, you have to
configure all of them individually. And if they don't support your
preferred options, you're out of luck.
Some more technical details:
Admittedly, the deletion of mail messages on an IMAP server is somewhat
unusual. It is a two-step process, first you "mark messages as deleted"
and then you "expunge" them.
About step 1: Each mail message on the server has a few flags or marks
which can be read and written by the clients. One of these flags is the
"delete flag". And the process of setting this delete flag is what
commonly is described by the phrase "marking as deleted". Such marked
messages are still on the server and can be used in every other way. How
they are presented to the human reader depends on the used client.
About step 2: The "expunge" command is given for a whole mail folder and
"really" deletes all messages which were previously "marked as deleted".
This "IMAP native" mail deletion technique should normally be available
as one option in all IMAP mail clients.
Now to the "trash folders", this is something completely different. Such
a folder has no special meaning on the server side, it is just an IMAP
folder like you can have others. It is only used by the client for a
special purpose. When you have set appropriate client options, then the
clients moves "deleted mails" to this folder and does not use the above
described IMAP deletion.
Actually this mail-move is also not a totally simple process, as there is
no native "move command" in the IMAP protocol, only a "copy command". So
with every move (including the moves to the trash) the client has to copy
the mail to the destination folders and delete it in the source
afterwards (e.g. with the IMAP delete functions again).
Hope these explanations helped a little to clear up the confusions. ;-)
Best regards,
Jochen Roderburg
RRZK
University of Cologne
Robert-Koch-Str. 10 Tel.: +49-221/478-7024
D-50931 Koeln E-Mail: roderb...@uni-koeln.de
Germany
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