Hi Sudhir,
I don't think it's fair to misrepresent my statements and ideas and to
put words in my mouth to sell your own ideas as you have done in your
mail. Since you've brought it up, here's my response:
>>>>> "Sudhir" == Sudhir Gandotra <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
Sudhir> Hello friends, This issue needs to be discussed and
Sudhir> decisions taken. It will be definately good not to keep
Sudhir> this issue pending, so that the participation in the group
Sudhir> is clearer and one knows one's limits and the limits that
Sudhir> the group's policies impose on the
Sudhir> discussions/topics/participation.
Sudhir> For example: The discussion itself was prompted because of
Sudhir> a request to announce the launch of a commercial linux
Sudhir> based software. Just the announcement of the launch of a
Sudhir> commercial software provoked such a response that reached
Sudhir> a point that the announcement was stalled by those against
Sudhir> the very idea of commercial software.
No one is against the idea of commercial software. Please specify who
made that statement.
Sudhir> The discussion reached a point: Are we a group for
Sudhir> everything under the name/aspects of Linux, or, are we a
Sudhir> free software group restricted to free and open software -
Sudhir> even if it not on linux and could be in windows. For
Sudhir> example, the point raised was : We could discuss an open &
Sudhir> free software on windows but not a commercial software on
Sudhir> linux.
It was not a point, it was a question.
Sudhir> The response from Raju was : "If this group (DLUG) is ging
Sudhir> to be anything but a "free software group", I will resign
Sudhir> from the group and may even form a separate one". His
Sudhir> response had supporters and also those who do not like
Sudhir> this kind of division, but, as usual, he and his ideas
Sudhir> prevailed - specially because those who did not support
Sudhir> this idea of his, decided to remain quiet and let the
Sudhir> discussions be completed properly and in a positive
Sudhir> atmosphere.
I think there was a lot of discussion after I made my views known.
There was no compulsion on any one to stay quiet. There was no
indication from anyone that objecting to the statements I DID make
(which incidentally were very different from what you have stated)
would result in the loss of propriety or positive atmosphere. I'm
neither the fascist dictator nor the perceived repository of ultimate
truth you're making me out to be.
Sudhir> Hence, now, it is only logical that this discussion is not
Sudhir> left hanging and decisions are taken to decide: Are we a
Sudhir> "free software users group " , or, are we a "linux users
Sudhir> group".
The issue is much deeper than that. It's not about free software and
Linux. It's about freedom.
Sudhir> We also have the choice to have both the subjects as those
Sudhir> of the group.
Sudhir> If being "free software users group " means that we cannot
Sudhir> even talk of commercial software on linux platform, we
Sudhir> have to define many things, because many
Sudhir> discussions/talks/announcements on the lists can/could be
Sudhir> directly/indirectly related to comemrcial software or
Sudhir> comercial organisations - the limitations and their
Sudhir> consequences need to be understood, discussed, known and
Sudhir> clarified.
Sudhir> Just like Raju is clear on his thinking of this being a
Sudhir> "free software users group ", I and some others are clear
Sudhir> that, in that case, we need a separate "linux users
Sudhir> group", because linux is not just about "free software" -
Sudhir> it is much more than that, it is about freedom, freedom
Sudhir> for users, freedom for developers, freedom for software
Sudhir> business, freedom for eveyone involved in any way with IT
Sudhir> - and perhaps even for those not directly involved with
Sudhir> IT.
Precisely. We need to understand what freedom ultimately is, and how
it relates to us, to the community, to Linux, to the IT industry and
even to the world. I fail to understand how curtailing someone else's
freedom can be construed a freedom in itself. Hope you'd be able to
explain that.
BTW, I did not use the term `free software user group'. Please do
clarify that the words you use are your own interpretation.
Sudhir> For me, Linux represents the eternal quest of human being
Sudhir> for freedom and is not restricted to IT.
I grant you the freedom to write closed, proprietary software.
However I fail to see any correlation at all between proprietary
software and the `eternal quest of human being for freedom'.
Sudhir> For me, I certaily respect the ideas of "free software",
Sudhir> but that does not mean no to commercial ineterests in
Sudhir> software. The group can surely decide to be "free
Sudhir> software users group ", but then there will be freedom to
Sudhir> others like me to form a separate "linux users group" and
Sudhir> this new group will be free to take up linux to aeas
Sudhir> beyond those of the "free software".
It is critical not to confuse commercial and proprietary. I make
money from Linux but I do not write proprietary software. No one
stops you from being commercial. However there are issues when you go
proprietary and then use terms like `freedom' to confuse the issue.
Please be very clear: are you talking commercial, or are you talking
proprietary? And if the latter, please explain the relevance of
freedom to the discussion.
Sudhir> But this group of ours must take up this matter and take
Sudhir> an immediate decision on the issue. If there is going to
Sudhir> be delay on this decision, then the group cannot close
Sudhir> itself on these ideas and pending the decision, all
Sudhir> discussions must be allowed - otherwise, it will mean
Sudhir> going back to nazi era, where you hd to speak only what
Sudhir> hitler wished.
Ah, I knew it! Godwin's Law had to rear it's ugly head some time or
the other!
Sudhir> I hope this mail goes through to the list uncensored and
Sudhir> we take up the matter for discussions and decisions.
No one has the time, energy or desire to censor any mails. Let's try
to discuss these issues like grown-ups.
Finally, I'd be glad to have this discussion at the next meeting. The
only reason I've been shying away from it is because a lot of people
appear to be bored with the topic. However, since you've brought it
up, we can definitely have this on the agenda. I'd warn those who're
interested in purely technical discussion in advance :-)
Regards,
-- Raju
Sudhir> Trinity wrote:
>> Dear all,
>>
>> I must extend my apolozies for continuing the discussion after
>> the prolonged discussion yesterday. But i think once the
>> conversation has intiated it should it reach it's logical end
>> manisfesting in certain policies we adopt and adhere to as a
>> group.
>>
>> Issues like `what is freedom' and `what is the freedom we
>> believe and are going to stand for' are not which can be
>> resolved either in one meet or many meets of the similar sorts.
>>
>> Freedom is the basic right we all are entitled to and for
>> which, ideally, we should not have to wage a war. The struggle
>> for freedom, if i may say, is not against the well identified
>> colonial power but many invisible powers enroaching on our
>> basic right to think, to be able to think and to be able to
>> articulate and communicate what we think.
>>
>> And to counter those forces is not an easy task as there in no
>> identifiable structure and no one enemy.
>>
>> The Free software movement is not appealing to me because it is
>> cheap or readily available but because it gives me the
>> assurnace that an entry into the space is not restricted, that
>> anytime i decide to i can accept it, learn to it and possibly
>> contribute to it.
>>
>> And this is from a so to say a `non-techie' background. I know
>> nothing about programming but the whole idea of freedom which
>> comes along has aroused my interest and maybe I will be make
>> something substantial of it.
>>
>> The fact that the whole premise of it is based on the
>> `non-proprietory' notion of knowledge. That knowledge is not a
>> hegemony of select few but that everyone has not only the
>> access to it but also the chance to interpret, translate and
>> reflect on it in the way they want to.
>>
>> Knowledge is power. someone said. and i believe in it. And
>> uninhibited access to knowledge is not only empowering but also
>> liberating.
>>
>> There are many paths which can be taken to meet the
>> ends. Before deciding on the path to be undertaken what is more
>> important to identify what `ends' we want to achieve.
>>
>> i have conciously avoided taking up any specific issues or even
>> limiting it to the meeting yesterday because i think these
>> issues need to be addresssed in the larger projection of it and
>> not limited to simply decieding on certain mandates or policies
>> for the smooth functioning of the group.
>>
>> and i sincerly hope this discussion continues so that a
>> concensus can be reached upon and we be very clear not only
>> about what we want to achieve but also how.
>>
>> It is in this context that i would like to introduce the idea
>> of having a `Newsletter' brought out on a regular basis (how
>> regular we decide) which discusses and raises these issues
>> along with technical ones and sort of have a sounding board to
>> make the ideas available across platforms. and also encourage
>> people from other groups (when i say group i do not mean
>> orgainzation or forums but anyone who is interested in any
>> capacity) to contribute.
>>
>> One of the sections in the newsletter can be dedicated to
>> discussing the development of the lap project and the way it
>> has been recieved.
>>
>> Please comment, raise doubts about the same so that by the time
>> we meet next most of the basic issues are thrashed and we can
>> talk about the technicalities.
>>
>> to end i would simply say, discussions are never futile and
>> confusions lead to calrity.
>>
>> and probably concensus.
>>
>> cheers tripta
--
Raju Mathur [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://kandalaya.org/
It is the mind that moves
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