The IBM Markup User’s Guide and Tutorial publication number is S544-3350-00, Dept. V53, P.O. Box 1900, Boulder, CO 80301-9191.
Message originated on my iPhone 12 > On Dec 27, 2022, at 11:04 AM, Bill <[email protected]> wrote: > > I have a pristine, complete boxed copy of IBM Markup in 3.5 and 5.25 > diskettes. IBM Markup, Version 1.0, part no. 6476161, dated 10/1987, > S544-3357-00, is described in the license information as “… an IBM Personal > Computer entry-assist program that allows you to create and edit GML > documents using DCF R3.0 or 3.1+ running in either VM/CMS or MVS/TSO.” > Central Service terminated 10/16/1990. > > This program requires DOS 2.1 or 3.3 for a file transfer program to the > mainframe. > > Message originated on my iPhone 12 > >> On Dec 26, 2022, at 9:00 PM, IBM-MAIN automatic digest system >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> There are 12 messages totaling 546 lines in this issue. >> >> Topics of the day: >> >> 1. Markup languages (2) >> 2. Markup languages - more on the shortcomings of MS Word (10) >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2022 14:10:56 +0000 >> From: Seymour J Metz <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: Markup languages >> >> I doubt it, since mark was primarily interested in XEDIT compatibility. >> Similarly, I don't expect to see a chart comparint e.g., ooRexx, Regina, to >> KEXX. >> >> >> -- >> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz >> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 >> >> ________________________________________ >> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [[email protected]] on behalf of >> Jeremy Nicoll [[email protected]] >> Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2022 3:07 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: Markup languages >> >>>> On Fri, 23 Dec 2022, at 12:51, Seymour J Metz wrote: >>> emacs >>> THE >>> vi >>> ... >> >> I've never used either emacs or vi and don't much want to have to >> learn another text editor's command set. >> >> Regarding THE, is there a list anywhere of what the differences between >> it and Kedit are? Wading through the THE documentation looking at >> each command is tedious, and it's not helped by finding out that some >> things are labelled "(not implemented)". >> >> >>> You may have my copy of TSPF when they pry it out of my cold, dead >>> fingers. >> >> I suspect that actually getting it from your estate might be tricky.... >> >> -- >> Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email to [email protected] with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email to [email protected] with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2022 14:44:30 +0000 >> From: Seymour J Metz <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: Markup languages >> >> TeX is the underlying language. I believe that most people use a document >> development environment with an editor and preview facility. Some of the >> available environments can automatically download required packages from >> CTAN. It is possible to generate a PDF without an intermediate DVI file. >> >> I'd start by looking at MiKTeX, TeX Live and TeXworks, or browse CTAN. >> >> >> -- >> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz >> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 >> >> ________________________________________ >> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [[email protected]] on behalf of >> Bob Bridges [[email protected]] >> Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2022 6:38 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: Markup languages >> >> I got quite a few nominations from the two forums where I posted this >> question, and it's early days to say I've settled on one, but currently I'm >> looking hard at LaTeX. I found a tutorial on it at javatpoint.com, but that >> was written by a non-native-English writer (maybe he a Slav?, guessing by >> his odd use of definite articles) and there are some phrases in there I >> can't parse with confidence. I imagine whatever documentation comes with >> the download will be clearer. >> >> But it seems there are multiple pieces I need to fetch. I get the >> impression that TEX is the actual markup language, and LaTeX is ... what? A >> series of extensions to TEX to allow it to do more? And I need a program >> that will convert my text and markup codes to a printer-ready document, >> and/or to a PDF file. And most people use a text editor specifically >> dedicated to working with LaTeX; various options for that last are >> mentioned. Do you have any specific recommendations? Because I think I'm >> about ready to download and experiment. >> >> --- >> Bob Bridges, [email protected], cell 336 382-7313 >> >> /* A person reveals his character by nothing so clearly as the joke he >> resents. -G C Lichtenberg */ >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <[email protected]> On Behalf Of >> Seymour J Metz >> Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2022 08:39 >> >> My preference, alas, is dead: BookMagager BUILD/MVS (or VM), which is built >> on BookMaster and DCF. Lacking that, I make do with LaTeX, which I find >> powerful but clumsier that the tools built on Script. >> >> I make extensive use of nested bulleted and numbered lists, and when I >> attempt to copy an entry to a different list, word garbles the markup >> horribly. Is there an equivalent to the reveal mode in word pervert that >> would allow me to correct that bug? The best that I've been able to come up >> with is to copy the entry to notepad and then copy from notepad. >> >> I would recommend a LaTeX environment, e.g., MiKTeX, TeXworks. Check out >> resources at CTAN. >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email to [email protected] with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email to [email protected] with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2022 09:52:16 -0500 >> From: Bob Bridges <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: Markup languages - more on the shortcomings of MS Word >> >> Once we were done with Christmas morning, my son and his family took off for >> other Christmas venues and I spent most of the day downloading MiKTeX (an >> editor for LateX) and reading documentatino. Finding the documentation was >> a bit of a chore and I'm not satisfied yet that I have everything I'll need, >> but the web eventually yielded up manuals whose titles, at least, claim >> they're about LaTeX, LaTeX2e, TeXWorks and MikTeX. I have a lot of reading >> yet to do. >> >> This morning I emailed the Word document to myself and tried saving it as >> PDF. Turns out Word is awful at that too. It skipped over most of the ToC >> and jumped from there straight to the beginning of the second chapter, >> omitting the Intro. I probably won't bother to see what else is wrong with >> it. >> >> --- >> Bob Bridges, [email protected], cell 336 382-7313 >> >> /* Do right, and God's recompense to you will be the power of doing more >> right. Give, and God's reward to you will be the spirit of giving >> more....Love, and God will pay you with the capacity of more love.... -F W >> Robertson */ >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email to [email protected] with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2022 16:02:32 +0000 >> From: Seymour J Metz <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: Markup languages - more on the shortcomings of MS Word >> >> If you will be writing your own macros, I'd suggest looking at expl3 (LaTeX >> 3) and friends; still experimental, but quite handy. >> >> >> -- >> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz >> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 >> >> ________________________________________ >> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [[email protected]] on behalf of >> Bob Bridges [[email protected]] >> Sent: Monday, December 26, 2022 9:52 AM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: Markup languages - more on the shortcomings of MS Word >> >> Once we were done with Christmas morning, my son and his family took off for >> other Christmas venues and I spent most of the day downloading MiKTeX (an >> editor for LateX) and reading documentatino. Finding the documentation was >> a bit of a chore and I'm not satisfied yet that I have everything I'll need, >> but the web eventually yielded up manuals whose titles, at least, claim >> they're about LaTeX, LaTeX2e, TeXWorks and MikTeX. I have a lot of reading >> yet to do. >> >> This morning I emailed the Word document to myself and tried saving it as >> PDF. Turns out Word is awful at that too. It skipped over most of the ToC >> and jumped from there straight to the beginning of the second chapter, >> omitting the Intro. I probably won't bother to see what else is wrong with >> it. >> >> --- >> Bob Bridges, [email protected], cell 336 382-7313 >> >> /* Do right, and God's recompense to you will be the power of doing more >> right. Give, and God's reward to you will be the spirit of giving >> more....Love, and God will pay you with the capacity of more love.... -F W >> Robertson */ >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email to [email protected] with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email to [email protected] with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2022 10:54:10 -0600 >> From: Charles Mills <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: Markup languages - more on the shortcomings of MS Word >> >> I have avoided replying on this thread. It is not my job to shill for >> Microsoft on a mainframe forum. >> >> However, just to get the facts on the record, let me say that I have been >> composing very complex manuals with included text and generated TODs and >> indexes in MS-Word for years, and publishing them as PDFs, with 100% success. >> >> Charles >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[email protected]] On >> Behalf Of Bob Bridges >> Sent: Monday, December 26, 2022 6:52 AM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: Markup languages - more on the shortcomings of MS Word >> >> Once we were done with Christmas morning, my son and his family took off for >> other Christmas venues and I spent most of the day downloading MiKTeX (an >> editor for LateX) and reading documentatino. Finding the documentation was >> a bit of a chore and I'm not satisfied yet that I have everything I'll need, >> but the web eventually yielded up manuals whose titles, at least, claim >> they're about LaTeX, LaTeX2e, TeXWorks and MikTeX. I have a lot of reading >> yet to do. >> >> This morning I emailed the Word document to myself and tried saving it as >> PDF. Turns out Word is awful at that too. It skipped over most of the ToC >> and jumped from there straight to the beginning of the second chapter, >> omitting the Intro. I probably won't bother to see what else is wrong with >> it. >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email to [email protected] with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2022 18:38:09 +0100 >> From: Peter Sylvester <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: Markup languages - more on the shortcomings of MS Word >> >>>> On 26/12/2022 17:54, Charles Mills wrote: >>> I have avoided replying on this thread. It is not my job to shill for >>> Microsoft on a mainframe forum. >>> >>> However, just to get the facts on the record, let me say that I have been >>> composing very complex manuals with included text and generated TODs and >>> indexes in MS-Word for years, and publishing them as PDFs, with 100% >>> success. >>> >>> Charles >>> >>> >> We seem to share a similar experience. :-) >> >> Peter >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email to [email protected] with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2022 13:52:08 -0600 >> From: Paul Gilmartin <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: Markup languages - more on the shortcomings of MS Word >> >>>> On Mon, 26 Dec 2022 09:52:16 -0500, Bob Bridges wrote: >>> ... >>> This morning I emailed the Word document to myself and tried saving it as >>> PDF. Turns out Word is awful at that too. It skipped over most of the ToC >>> and jumped from there straight to the beginning of the second chapter, >>> omitting the Intro. I probably won't bother to see what else is wrong with >>> it. >>> >> Seems more like a problem with mail than with Word. Did you bother to see >> that the file you received was identical to the file you mailed? >> >> -- >> gil >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email to [email protected] with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2022 21:13:21 +0100 >> From: Peter Sylvester <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: Markup languages - more on the shortcomings of MS Word >> >>> On 26/12/2022 20:52, Paul Gilmartin wrote: >>>> On Mon, 26 Dec 2022 09:52:16 -0500, Bob Bridges wrote: >>>> ... >>>> This morning I emailed the Word document to myself and tried saving it as >>>> PDF. Turns out Word is awful at that too. It skipped over most of the ToC >>>> and jumped from there straight to the beginning of the second chapter, >>>> omitting the Intro. I probably won't bother to see what else is wrong >>>> with it. >>>> >>> Seems more like a problem with mail than with Word. Did you bother to see >>> that the file you received was identical to the file you mailed? >>> >> File not saved before email? >> >> table of contents was not updated before save? >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email to [email protected] with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2022 17:44:14 -0500 >> From: Bob Bridges <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: Markup languages - more on the shortcomings of MS Word >> >> In fact I did not. Good point. It happens I'm still logged on at the >> client cite; let's try it there... >> >> Nope, same problem. Nevertheless I was hasty to blame Word; it's very >> possible I just didn't set it up correctly in the .docx format. I know >> better than to manually set formatting and believe it's the same as defining >> and using styles, but there may even so be mistakes in my work. >> >> Still, though; if I'm going to make that kind of mistake in Word, I think >> I'm better off using a markup language instead. >> >> --- >> Bob Bridges, [email protected], cell 336 382-7313 >> >> /* ...the director and the writers keep changing the script. The actors >> will do a scene, and the director will say, "OK, that was perfect, but this >> time, Bob, instead of saying 'What's for dinner?' you say, 'Wait a minute! >> Benzene is actually a hydrocarbon!' And say it with a Norwegian accent. >> Also, we think maybe your character should have no arms." -Dave Barry, >> describing his acting debut in "Dave's World" */ >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <[email protected]> On Behalf Of >> Paul Gilmartin >> Sent: Monday, December 26, 2022 14:52 >> >> Seems more like a problem with mail than with Word. Did you bother to see >> that the file you received was identical to the file you mailed? >> >>>> --- On Mon, 26 Dec 2022 09:52:16 -0500, Bob Bridges wrote: >>> This morning I emailed the Word document to myself and tried saving it >>> as PDF. Turns out Word is awful at that too. It skipped over most of >>> the ToC and jumped from there straight to the beginning of the second >>> chapter, omitting the Intro. I probably won't bother to see what else is >>> wrong with it. >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email to [email protected] with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2022 10:17:13 +0800 >> From: David Crayford <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: Markup languages - more on the shortcomings of MS Word >> >> MS Word is a great product for it's main use case. I don't consider it a >> good choice for technical documentation and neither does the Information >> Developer in my team. There are many better tools out there, some of >> which are free. Documentation in today's world can be published in many >> different formats. Text documents, HTML, PDF etc. Documentation should >> be considered code, which is why markdown is so popular. Documentation >> should go through the same development pipeline as source code with a >> pull request and a code review before being committed to a SCM and >> rendered into product artifacts. MS Word is useless for team >> collaboration. It's ok for a one person team but doesn't scale. >> >> My team uses https://vuejs.org/. At the moment we only build HTML but >> there are packages to render a multitidue of different formats including >> PDF, word docs etc. Extensions are written in Typescript or Javascript >> so there is a massive eco-system to pull from. >> >>>> On 27/12/22 00:54, Charles Mills wrote: >>> I have avoided replying on this thread. It is not my job to shill for >>> Microsoft on a mainframe forum. >>> >>> However, just to get the facts on the record, let me say that I have been >>> composing very complex manuals with included text and generated TODs and >>> indexes in MS-Word for years, and publishing them as PDFs, with 100% >>> success. >>> >>> Charles >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[email protected]] On >>> Behalf Of Bob Bridges >>> Sent: Monday, December 26, 2022 6:52 AM >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: Re: Markup languages - more on the shortcomings of MS Word >>> >>> Once we were done with Christmas morning, my son and his family took off >>> for other Christmas venues and I spent most of the day downloading MiKTeX >>> (an editor for LateX) and reading documentatino. Finding the documentation >>> was a bit of a chore and I'm not satisfied yet that I have everything I'll >>> need, but the web eventually yielded up manuals whose titles, at least, >>> claim they're about LaTeX, LaTeX2e, TeXWorks and MikTeX. I have a lot of >>> reading yet to do. >>> >>> This morning I emailed the Word document to myself and tried saving it as >>> PDF. Turns out Word is awful at that too. It skipped over most of the ToC >>> and jumped from there straight to the beginning of the second chapter, >>> omitting the Intro. I probably won't bother to see what else is wrong with >>> it. >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>> send email to [email protected] with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email to [email protected] with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2022 18:43:33 -0800 >> From: Ed Jaffe <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: Markup languages - more on the shortcomings of MS Word >> >>>> On 12/26/2022 6:17 PM, David Crayford wrote: >>> >>> My team uses https://vuejs.org/. At the moment we only build HTML but >>> there are packages to render a multitidue of different formats >>> including PDF, word docs etc. Extensions are written in Typescript or >>> Javascript so there is a massive eco-system to pull from. >> >> >> For many years we used MS Word for our product documentation, but it was >> just too buggy and cumbersome. >> >> Our team now uses MadCap Flare. It's a "best of breed" solution >> specifically designed for technical documentation. >> >> https://www.madcapsoftware.com/products/flare/ >> >> We use it to deliver our documentation in three formats: Adobe PDF, >> HTML, and Eclipse plug-ins that can be used with IBM InfoCenter and >> KnowledgeCenter (including KC4Z on z/OS). >> >> >> -- >> Phoenix Software International >> Edward E. Jaffe >> 831 Parkview Drive North >> El Segundo, CA 90245 >> https://www.phoenixsoftware.com/ >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> This e-mail message, including any attachments, appended messages and the >> information contained therein, is for the sole use of the intended >> recipient(s). If you are not an intended recipient or have otherwise >> received this email message in error, any use, dissemination, distribution, >> review, storage or copying of this e-mail message and the information >> contained therein is strictly prohibited. If you are not an intended >> recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies >> of this email message and do not otherwise utilize or retain this email >> message or any or all of the information contained therein. Although this >> email message and any attachments or appended messages are believed to be >> free of any virus or other defect that might affect any computer system into >> which it is received and opened, it is the responsibility of the recipient >> to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by the >> sender for any loss or damage arising in any way from its opening or use. >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email to [email protected] with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2022 12:35:48 +0800 >> From: David Crayford <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: Markup languages - more on the shortcomings of MS Word >> >> On 27/12/22 10:43, Ed Jaffe wrote: >>>> My team uses https://vuejs.org/. At the moment we only build HTML but >>>> there are packages to render a multitidue of different formats >>>> including PDF, word docs etc. Extensions are written in Typescript or >>>> Javascript so there is a massive eco-system to pull from. >>> >>> >>> For many years we used MS Word for our product documentation, but it >>> was just too buggy and cumbersome. >>> >>> Our team now uses MadCap Flare. It's a "best of breed" solution >>> specifically designed for technical documentation. >>> >>> https://www.madcapsoftware.com/products/flare/ >>> >>> We use it to deliver our documentation in three formats: Adobe PDF, >>> HTML, and Eclipse plug-ins that can be used with IBM InfoCenter and >>> KnowledgeCenter (including KC4Z on z/OS) >> >> Looks great! It supports DITA which we use for our IBM marketed products >> that get published on KC. I like that it has extensive build automation >> including a CLI so integrating into a DevOps pipeline using Jenkins or >> other build automation is simple. >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email to [email protected] with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> End of IBM-MAIN Digest - 25 Dec 2022 to 26 Dec 2022 (#2022-355) >> *************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [email protected] with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
