Also I will leave this here: 6 reasons people do not want to work in the open - http://opensource.com/business/14/10/why-work-open
Notice this is a employee of Red Hat (a for profit corporation with share holders and values much different then ours) calling for discussions to be in public irc channels by default and recorded by default. On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 12:52 PM, Benjamin Kerensa <bkere...@mozillausa.org> wrote: > On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 10:31 AM, Majken Connor <maj...@gmail.com> wrote: >> I skimmed, so forgiveness please in advance if I am repeating points already >> made... >> >> This isn't to say that I am opposed to having public logs of *project* >> channels, but I see two problems that I think should be addressed: >> >> 1. Trying to keep up with a project by reading IRC logs (or watching meeting >> videos) is a lot to ask for many people. This takes a lot of time and >> someone could end up spending all their day reading logs and watching videos >> to stay informed. We need to make sure that sharing the logs addresses the >> case of people who hang out regularly and just want to catch what they >> missed. We need to make sure that teams do *not* say "if you want to follow >> us, read the logs." > > I do not think that's a fair request. Ultimately, if someone is > interested in knowing what a team is doing, they should spend however > much time they feel is necessary for them to be kept abreast of a > team. Whether that be following a team blog, subscribing to a mailing > list, watching Air Mo, following a wiki page or perusing logs. > > > Teams do not have time to break down what they are doing for every > contributor that approaches. As others have pointed out, this is not > just about contributors or the project seeing the log but also > upstream and downstream open source projects and partners and users. A > lot of really important decisions that impact the entire web are made > over IRC. > >> >> 2. When there is a channel list, it is easy for you to think that this list >> of people is your audience. I've noticed the same thing when streaming a >> meeting over vidyo to an audience. You forget that the participants you >> can't see are there. Logging to share with other people who generally hang >> out in a channel is one thing. Publicly logging is another. It could be very >> easy for someone to use the logs to "quote" a "Mozilla developer." Humans >> behave differently depending on their audience, even if we make a policy >> that logs will be public, this hidden audience member will be forgotten >> until something gets publicly taken out of context. > > That is not a problem unique to having IRC logs nor do I think it > would be aggravated by having public IRC logs. Just at our all hands > alone, the media took a number of Mozillians tweets and ran to press > with it. In the past the media regularly quotes "a Mozilla Developer" > by taking info from personal blogs. This is the nature of the game in > open source; that being writers will run with anything they can from > any source they can. We shouldn't not be more open where we can just > to make sure the media doesn't take things out of context. > > FWIW, we have an entire team of paid PR professionals whose job is to > send corrections to the media. > > > >> >> Mozilla has a dearth of good note takers, in terms of solving transparency I >> would be more in favor of trying to solve that problem, not using public >> logs to solve it. I am in favor of having logs accessible for Mozillians to >> solve the problem of people who do follow the team missing conversations >> when they're disconnected. > > There is no other way to be more transparent about what we do on IRC > and what decisions we make as a project for our products and what > decisions we make that impact the entire web without opening things > up. Open by default is hard but it should always be how we operate and > opening up IRC logs would be consistent with our manifesto FWIW. As it > stands right now there are huge amounts of decisions being made on a > regular basis that even Mozillians paid or non-paid do not know happen > and do not have the ability to be aware of because IRC is one of our > modes of communication and we choose for it to be only available to > those who are there to catch a conversation or those who persistently > stay connected and log privately. > >> >> On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 4:20 PM, Trevor Saunders <tbsau...@tbsaunde.org> >> wrote: >>> >>> On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 05:51:01PM -0800, Benjamin Kerensa wrote: >>> > It can be if we want to achieve the goal of having a central place the >>> > project and users and downstream partners can refer back to. Community >>> >>> logs.glob.uno is the central place, so no that's not a problem. >>> >>> > hosted things are not a guaranteed thing while MoCo hosted infra has a >>> > better chance of longevity. >>> >>> imho there's nothing special about moco, its just a very large comunity >>> member. That said if you really want logs stored on a moco server you >>> only need to convince moco to pay to copy the logs from logbot you don't >>> need a policy. >>> >>> Trev >>> >>> >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 5:47 PM, Gavin Sharp <ga...@gavinsharp.com> >>> > wrote: >>> > >>> > > You can ask glob to add logbot to it (http://logs.glob.uno/). It can >>> > > "go >>> > > away at any time", sure, but that doesn't seem like a big deal in >>> > > practice. >>> > > >>> > > Gavin >>> > > >>> > > On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 5:29 PM, L. David Baron <dba...@dbaron.org> >>> > > wrote: >>> > > >>> > > > On Friday 2015-01-23 17:08 -0800, Gavin Sharp wrote: >>> > > > > I should perhaps clarify, though, that I don't really think >>> > > > > there's a >>> > > > > need for a project-wide policy to enforce that channels must be >>> > > > > logged, and that's probably what Yvan is reacting strongly to. >>> > > > > Most of >>> > > > > the important public IRC channels are already being publicly >>> > > > > logged, >>> > > > > as mentioned, and where they aren't it's easy enough to reach out >>> > > > > to >>> > > > > the channel owner and change that. >>> > > > >>> > > > As a channel owner, who do I ask to change that? Or am I supposed >>> > > > to set up my own server? Or rely on some other member of the >>> > > > community whose server might go away at any time? >>> > > > >>> > > > -David >>> > > > >>> > > > -- >>> > > > 𝄞 L. David Baron http://dbaron.org/ 𝄂 >>> > > > 𝄢 Mozilla https://www.mozilla.org/ 𝄂 >>> > > > Before I built a wall I'd ask to know >>> > > > What I was walling in or walling out, >>> > > > And to whom I was like to give offense. >>> > > > - Robert Frost, Mending Wall (1914) >>> > > > >>> > > _______________________________________________ >>> > > governance mailing list >>> > > governance@lists.mozilla.org >>> > > https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/governance >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > Benjamin Kerensa >>> > Mozilla Rep >>> > http://mozillausa.org >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > governance mailing list >>> > governance@lists.mozilla.org >>> > https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/governance >>> _______________________________________________ >>> governance mailing list >>> governance@lists.mozilla.org >>> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/governance >> >> > > > > -- > Benjamin Kerensa > Mozilla Rep > http://mozillausa.org -- Benjamin Kerensa Mozilla Rep http://mozillausa.org _______________________________________________ governance mailing list governance@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/governance
