You can't satisfy everyone out of the box.
The rest of your response kinda rotates around a central axiom that
makes other Linux distributions effective, and "Easy":
The lack of choice, a tailored work flow, a target audience, and a
narrow focus on what the vendor delivers.
Gentoo is fundamentally unlike these things, because the Gentoo way
has always been first and foremost about *user choice* and
*maximising user choice*
Noting in promoting an easy install semantic for a default, buildable
system, precludes choice after the system is installed and boot. For
examle a default install, using Calamares and ending up with KDE,
could easily then have kde removed and lxqt installed. That would be
up to the new user to figure out, via the handbook and the wiki....
The reality is a giant hunk of the world are *not interested in
choice* They want something that works and get out of their way.
Quite true, but we're talking about increasing gentoo's update
amongst those linux leaners, not converting windows/mac users that
are not interested in alternatives....
That's why proprietary systems with deep, vertical architecture and
product lock-in are still incredibly popular.
They understand their market, and they focus on making things work
for that market by tailoring it to a very narrow set of features
that satisfies 95% of its target.
Support is always a crowd pleaser, imho. So with fresh ideas, the
newest members support those right behind them in line with user
level issues. Noobs helping noobs. buntu has proven this works, if
nothing else.
Gentoo's target audience is decidedly that other 5%, the group of
people who don't mind getting their hands dirty, the group who wade
up to their elbows dealing with horrible problems because that's the
consequence of the power of choice.
What I proposed, models for easier install and a VM/Container system
that is secure and allow for experimentation with "jentoo" does not
limit, but, encourage choice and experimentation.
Let's focus on the easy install. Once folks get a running gentoo
system, most figure out how to manage it and like the choices, build
from sources (and bin packages for the larger/complex).
You can promote pre-boxed Gentoo products if you want, I just think
you're barking up the wrong tree if you think doing that will help
anybody.
You are misconstruing the message. It's a boxed, quick install that
would behave going forward, with the same (exact) semantics as a
grudge-filled traditional install. The only difference is that first
install is
quick, fast and easy. Nothing else changes, unless this fresh install
chooses to embrace additional packaging or alternative packages
compare to the default install. Nobody needs to make that decision.
Surely many will then go read the handbook and the wiki to move
forward. The install just becomes painless for a few basic or default
examples. We do currently provide an occasional 'liveDVD'. So just
image one of those, with an easy install pathway.
As with most open source, it requires volunteer effort to make this
happen, and its a hard sell to try to convince existing staff to
spend more time on producing a thing that exists only to *reduce*
user choice for the sake of convenience.
Again, you are incorrectly suggesting that these easy installs will
preclude traditional gentoo semantics for adding, modifying, patching,
or any other form of currently available modifications or enhancement
from occurring. I'm not certain if you are twisting the focus here
intentionally, or you are just limited in your imagination? Nobody
wants that (artificial) limitation, so why would it me the semantic
going forward, after an easy install?
Think of it like sex. All of the traditional would be wonderfully
available, but we're just adding a quickie (install) as an extra
option. No limitations, just *choice* on the install.
And I just think most of our devs have more interesting problems to
solve than that, and you'd be simply weakening the core Gentoo
development team by trying to steal existing Gentoo staff to
engineer this carefully designed and polished "Just Works For
Noobs" platform.
Agreed. My idea is some encouragement and maybe receive a little bit
of positive advise. The noobs will help the noobs, and a few will
migrate down the maintainer--> dev pathway.
On this list and elsewhere gentoo devs have admitted to using quickie
installs, and liked it. It's just frowned upon to document it and
encourage it. Like a wiki page on how to convert a calculate or
sabayon install to a traditional gentoo system.
And even then, I think if you did OK, it would be striving for the
wrong thing.
An easy install, does not have to be detrimental. Over the years I
have taught quite a few 'youngsters' how to drive on rural flat land
in a big 4x4 with an automatic transmission and a booster seat. You
just put the transfer case into low, and they cannot go very fast and
the love the *power*, spinning tires and slinging mud and riding
around. Later on in life they all have matured into productive adults.
Face it, gentoo is a power trip, we all know that. Letting folks feel
that, in a easy, but real, quick install default version, that
eventually hooks them into gentoo.
If you're going to come to a competition that has existing major
players ( such as the "noob friendly" linux desktop market ), you
have to not be simply a "me too!" in order to hope for success.
The power of Gentoo-traditional awaits them, soon after reading and
learning from the handbook and the wiki. Not all will use this, but,
it sure would put a more attractive face on taking gentoo for a test
drive.
You have to have something unique that blows all the competition
out of the water in at least one way, that capitalises on an
un-tapped need.
Anything else will just be some pathetic copy-cat attempt.
And for Gentoo, our "Unique Edge" *is* our configurability, our
incredibly effective and convenient flexibility.
Again, nothing in this idea inhibits the full power of gentoo from
being available; nothing. The begging of (their) journey is easier and
more appealing. Many will stay in the valley of the noobs, but other
will turn to the handbook and the wiki; just as grasshopper became
shaolin, imho. Monk my words.....
Sacrificing our primary benefit to chase after some other market
half-assedly ... I can't see that panning out well myself.
You keep with this false choice, that is non-sequitur. The only
limiting here is your mind.
Personally, I think we need to double down on what we're good at,
flexibility, and configurability.
No arguments there. Putting an experimental for of gentoo, complete
with questionable java, into a secure Gentoo hosted VM or Container,
is not flexibility and configurability?
Find ways of building systems at the users behest that do exactly
what they want easily, and not assume we know what is best for our
users.
You should go to any of the progressive job boards (stackoverflow
etc). Java is everywhere. It should not be mandated but a choice.
Sincere the are numerous issues java, secure it via a VM or a
container, if that can be done?
Anything else and Gentoo will go in the direction of the sad sorry
state of the Linux Desktop, where neither GTK/Gnome or QT/KDE are
very useable anymore, and they've become encumbered with horribly
lethargic and bloated design, because they were all trying too hard
to chase what they thought people wanted, the standard established
by Windows and OSX for "Easy".
Agreed and that is not what I'm proposing, either. I'm proposing an
easy install for a few types of basic systems (that choice is open to
discussion). And, if possible, a way to put either a secure VM or a
secure container on a hardened gentoo system to put an
insecure/experimental form of jentoo into.
