Hi Jeff, I guess you misunderstood what I am raising for discussion. I'm not arguing against e-mail lists. I prefer them or we'd not have this discussion, right? As a matter of fact, my projects at my previous employer adopted an "everything happens on e-mail" to deal with timezone differences and hive mind building. So, no need to convince me on the benefit of the technology and why.
What I AM pointing to is that I'm experiencing groups that aren't comfortable with interacting using e-mail quoting language and slowness as barriers. Let's accept that as a fact for the sake of discussion. Do we ignore that class of community because they're not operating the right way or do we find ways to interact/lower barriers/whatever makes sense? Again, this is a generic discussion, not a project-specific discussion. Thanks, Gunnar On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 1:25 PM, Jeff Genender <jgenen...@apache.org> wrote: > > > On Nov 13, 2016, at 11:33 AM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gun...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > As mentioned, the Apache Way is that "everything happens on the mailing > lists." As a matter of fact, key parts of being an incubator is to learn > how to operate per the Apache Way and to build communities. We even include > statistics about mailing list engagement as an indicator of community > building. > > > > Gunnar, I’m going to give you a big -1 to this. > > Unless you can come up with a better global way to A) communicate across a > medium that everyone uses daily B) archive to search and come back to, I am > in full disagreement. Since I have been with Apache (about 14 years), I > have yet to find a better medium than the lists, and its always been a > known fact that ultimately, any non-mail list discussions that result in > some form of a decision are brought to the mail lists for global discussion. > > Our mail lists are indexed by Google and others. Its easy to find what > one looks for. > > Jeff > > > > The struggle I'm referring is that we're seeing a reluctance to > participate in the main Apache communication methods: email. Clearly, we > can try to get statistics from the different forums you and I have > mentioned but that's really just collecting data points. > > > > How can you help? Well, how to we get more people from China (or other > companies) to engage with the mailing lists or vice versa? I'm imagining > jumping on the QQ group and must admit to be very apprehensive on doing so. > It's not an easy thing to get over. > > > > Gunnar > > > > On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 7:16 AM, Luke Han <luke...@gmail.com <mailto: > luke...@gmail.com>> wrote: > > Hi Gunnar, > > > > > Given your statistics, I think there is: > > > "everything happens on the mailing lists" just isn't the case when > there's > > > a 20K contributor community on WeChat. That's awesome news! But, it's > > > invisible to the rest of us. > > > > I think maybe I'm not bring message so clearly, let me try again: > > Such account is not a GROUP, it's something like twitter account > which > > has 20k followers where the author sharing experiences, samples and > > anything else...to help to educate users, help to grow up local > > communities. I have to say, such account helped a lot for ASF projects' > > adoption in China. Back to QQ group, something like Google Group which > > everybody could create in seconds. > > > > Is that Trafodion QQ group created and managed by Trafodion PMC or > > someone else? Did your PMCs make decision over there, or just users who > > asking questions over there? If "it's invisible to the rest of us" means > > decision has been made by your PMCs in QQ group but not in mailing > > list...that's really problem and you have to raise to PPMC/IPMC. > > > > But if it's about user group, there are many local communities > > everywhere for sure using different languages, in Chinese, in Spanish, in > > Japanese...could we know everything from there? For example, did Hadoop > > report include activities from Hortonworks/Cloudera hosted forum, twitter > > accounts or Facebook pages "like" number or any other online > forums/groups? > > They are really user communities too. > > > > I just shared my experience with you in last reply about how we > > handle that...hope it could help you to understand what you could do. And > > also brought some facts how user communities formed, operated and what we > > have did. And brought some data from different Apache projects, obviously > > it's not "an Apache-wide issue that needs to be addressed". > > > > I'm not argue with you about "Which language is better" or "mailing > > list vs QQ/Google Group", I just want to help you to figure the root > cause > > of your original "struggle" problem. > > > > But I'm not very agree with you raised such discussion after a new > > incubator project proposal (and just changed the subject name)...looks > like > > we are really not friendly to new comers especially from a different, non > > native English speaking (actually most of talent engineers are well > > educated with English in China) and different culture world...the team is > > so "scary" and asked us many times like "will they cancel the vote? do > they > > really welcome our project?..." when they saw this thread? > > > > And, let's focus on your really issue, maybe we could help you:) > > > > Thanks. > > > > Luke > > > > > > > > Best Regards! > > --------------------- > > > > Luke Han > > > > On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 1:39 AM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gun...@gmail.com > <mailto:tapper.gun...@gmail.com>> > > wrote: > > > > > Hi Luke: > > > > > > This question was originally asked on the incubator list. The members > list > > > was added somewhere on the line. > > > > > > Part of the incubator challenge is to show community growth. In the > past, a > > > good metric seems to have been to check interaction on the mailing > lists; > > > for example, on the user list. > > > > > > As you note, China changes this equation forming communities on QQ, > WeChat, > > > and other places I'm probably not aware of. This means that there can > be a > > > thriving user community that the PMC may or may not be aware of. So, > how to > > > we assess community involvement that bypass the Apache "everything > happens > > > on the mailing lists" principle? > > > > > > Like you noted, it's easy to translate questions and respond to > questions > > > in English. The Trafodion project does that, no problems. But, most of > the > > > discussion in China happen on the alternative forums with the project's > > > Chinese speakers contributors participating. So, for Trafodion > > > specifically, I can ask those contributors to provide participation > > > statistics so that I can include the information in the next report. > > > > > > However, I was trying to figure out whether there's an Apache-wide > issue > > > that needs to be addressed. Given your statistics, I think there is: > > > "everything happens on the mailing lists" just isn't the case when > there's > > > a 20K contributor community on WeChat. That's awesome news! But, it's > > > invisible to the rest of us. > > > > > > So, let's think about this from a community building perspective. The > > > traditional way of mailing lists is now being augmented by WeChat, QQ, > etc. > > > in an organic fashion. I'd argue that you don't want to police organic > > > growth but rather embrace it so that you can get insights into what's > going > > > on. > > > > > > Assuming that people agree that it's important to bridge the > communities, > > > I'd start with something simple: how can we find out what communities > exist > > > in the different Chinese forums, membership, and activity. Shy of > learning > > > Chinese that is. :) > > > > > > My next question is: how can we help those communities? What would make > > > Apache usage grow even more? For Trafodion, I simply pointed to the QQ > > > group but that seems way too little... > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Gunnar > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 8:48 AM, Luke Han <luke...@gmail.com <mailto: > luke...@gmail.com>> wrote: > > > > > > > > As mentioned, the Chinese users have chosen to find an alternate > means > > > > > to communicate that was invisible to the project until I heard > about > > > it. > > > > So, I > > > > > choose to accept reality and provided a link to the discussion > group so > > > > that > > > > > others that wanted to discuss in Chinese knew where to go. Maybe > that > > > was > > > > > the wrong choice but I rather encourage interaction somewhere than > shut > > > > it > down with a "use our mailing lists only." > > > > > > > > And for "invisible to the project", are you talking about PMCs or > Users? > > > > That's totally different arguments. > > > > > > > > Would like to share our experience which may help to bring some > ideas for > > > > you. At the beginning, there were many people came to Kylin mailing > list > > > > and > > > > asked questions in Chinese, but our PMC (most of them are Chinese > too) > > > had > > > > tried their best to help to translate to English, again and again. > And we > > > > tried to convince people who we knew to ask question in English. And > we > > > > have a > > > > simple rule for our PMCs to answer question in English no matter > which > > > > Language > > > > of the question. > > > > Not easy for everybody, but finally it works. The point is your PMCs > > > should > > > > keep discussion in mailing list, in English. And then to influent > others > > > > who > > > > want to participate, contribute and use this open source project. > > > > > > > > Why English? > > > > It's only way to cross board for global adoption. > > > > > > > > > > > > On the other hand, from user perspective, they really would like to > learn > > > > and > > > > try new technology with their native language so that they could > > > understand > > > > quickly and deeply, people may give up if their English is not good > > > enough > > > > at that time...then they asking question in their native Language is > the > > > > right > > > > thing they should to do to get help. > > > > > > > > For projects coming from non-English developer community, the native > > > > language is the best one to attract local users and fans, then > > > developers. > > > > We > > > > shouldn't force "users" how to communicate between them, actually > nothing > > > > we can do. For example, there's QQ group for Kylin which is very > active > > > who > > > > are discussing and exchanging ideas over there. What can we do? Try > to > > > > leading discussion to mailing list and never answer detail question > there > > > > but > > > > will do in mailing list. But that's not said people will coming to > > > mailing > > > > list > > > > because they already could help each other. > > > > > > > > Actually, most of Apache projects have QQ or WeChat group(s) in > China. > > > > For example, there are hundreds Spark groups each one has 500 people > and > > > > more in QQ groups. > > > > > > > > One more reference, I just got to know today there's one popular > Hadoop > > > > WeChat Official Account ("official account' is WeChat's product, > > > something > > > > like channel/blog...) who has 20,000 subscribers. And it's just one > of > > > such > > > > accounts... > > > > > > > > Then my question is are PPMCs willing to engage them? > > > > > > > > Why Chinese? > > > > To engage the biggest developer community of the world, no matter > where's > > > > project coming from. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best Regards! > > > > --------------------- > > > > > > > > Luke Han > > > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:34 PM, Gunnar Tapper < > tapper.gun...@gmail.com <mailto:tapper.gun...@gmail.com>> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps it would be a good idea to separate user lists from other > > > lists? > > > > I > > > > > was specifically referring to users wanting to ask questions and > to get > > > > > help. The support side if you will. > > > > > > > > > > As mentioned, the Chinese users have chosen to find an alternate > means > > > to > > > > > communicate that was invisible to the project until I heard about > it. > > > > So, I > > > > > choose to accept reality and provided a link to the discussion > group so > > > > > that others that wanted to discuss in Chinese knew where to go. > Maybe > > > > that > > > > > was the wrong choice but I rather encourage interaction somewhere > than > > > > shut > > > > > it down with a "use our mailing lists only." > > > > > > > > > > As mention, I prefer to use e-mail lists but it seems that users > aren't > > > > > comfortable with that. I'm hoping that people in China can help > > > identify > > > > > what would work for those users. > > > > > > > > > > I have similar issues with documentation but I'll open a separate > > > > > discussion thread on that topic. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > Gunnar > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 12:14 AM, Jeff Genender < > jgenen...@apache.org <mailto:jgenen...@apache.org>> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> I would think that English is generally used because its the most > > > > >> international language, not because its the most used in the > world. > > > > Thus > > > > >> it helps cross borders for communication. At the end of the day, > I > > > > think > > > > >> you need to look at your community and ask if you want it to cross > > > > borders > > > > >> or not. Do you want worldwide contribution (and adoption)? I can > > > tell > > > > you > > > > >> that I glean a lot of information from the mail lists when I run > into > > > > >> problems or issues using Apache software. If the discussions are > in > > > > >> Chinese, you may miss a lot of people who can be a part of the > > > > discussion > > > > >> from outside of China. I think you really need to think about > who you > > > > want > > > > >> your users to be and how you want your product adopted. > > > > >> > > > > >> In addition, this is an incubated project. AFAICT, the champion > > > doesn’t > > > > >> speak Chinese, and I am wild-guessing maybe 2 of the mentors do. > This > > > > >> means the other mentors may have a difficult time steering the > project > > > > when > > > > >> they are needed. It makes it difficult for the champion to asses > any > > > > >> problems without having someone notify him of a translated > issue. In > > > > the > > > > >> unlikely event that the project requires input from the > incubation PMC > > > > or, > > > > >> the board for that matter, it would be very difficult to get a > proper > > > > >> insight into the issues without have solid knowledge of the > language. > > > > >> > > > > >> I personally don’t know of any rule or regulation that locks down > a > > > > >> language and perhaps a board member can chime in on that. But my > .02 > > > is > > > > >> that if I were bringing a project to Apache, my thoughts about > > > community > > > > >> would be getting as many people and users involved as possible. > If > > > you > > > > >> don’t use a more cross-border/international language, then I > believe > > > > that > > > > >> you may ultimately be hindering your project beyond your > borders. I > > > > think > > > > >> that would be a shame. OTOH, maybe your desire is to keep > RocketMQ a > > > > >> Chinese piece of software. I guess that is ok too… but I would be > > > > >> interested in why. > > > > >> > > > > >> Just my usual .02. > > > > >> > > > > >> Jeff > > > > >> > > > > >> > On Nov 10, 2016, at 11:53 PM, Tom Barber <t...@spicule.co.uk > <mailto:t...@spicule.co.uk>> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > >> > I believe I saw something the other day where someone was > talking > > > > about > > > > >> diverse languages on mailing lists. personally I think it's okay > but > > > > >> obviously it decreases the chance of participation of others. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > of course the old saying "if it wasn't discussed on the list it > > > never > > > > >> happened" didn't mention the language. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Thought must be taken for jira and code comments as well. how > would > > > > non > > > > >> Chinese speaking people follow development? > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > On 11 Nov 2016 06:45, "Reynold Xin" <r...@apache.org <mailto: > r...@apache.org> <mailto: > > > > >> r...@apache.org <mailto:r...@apache.org>>> wrote: > > > > >> > Adding members@ > > > > >> > > > > > >> > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <r...@apache.org > <mailto:r...@apache.org> > > > > <mailto: > > > > >> r...@apache.org <mailto:r...@apache.org>>> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that > > > consist > > > > >> > > primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or > put > > > it > > > > >> > > differently -- is it a requirement that all communications > must be > > > > in > > > > >> > > English? > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use > English, as > > > > >> English > > > > >> > > is one of the most common languages. However, many talented > > > software > > > > >> > > developers in China don't have the sufficient level of > proficiency > > > > >> when it > > > > >> > > comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China > is > > > > much > > > > >> lower > > > > >> > > than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to > learn > > > > >> English > > > > >> > > as for English speakers to learn Chinese. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will > also > > > > >> exclude > > > > >> > > those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the > number > > > of > > > > >> native > > > > >> > > speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 > to 1 > > > > >> according > > > > >> > > to Wikipedia. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other > > > countries, > > > > >> > > except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Luke Han < > luke...@apache.org <mailto:luke...@apache.org> > > > > >> <mailto:luke...@apache.org <mailto:luke...@apache.org>>> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > >> Hi Gunnar, > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> I don't think your point is right, one community's problem > (maybe > > > > not > > > > >> > >> real, > > > > >> > >> but just > > > > >> > >> refer to what you mentioned) could NOT represent all > > > contributions > > > > >> from > > > > >> > >> China, > > > > >> > >> or any other territories from all of the world. > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> This will misleading people to ignore contributions from > Chinese > > > > and > > > > >> LABEL > > > > >> > >> for such > > > > >> > >> contributors and committers..as your pattern, there are tons > of > > > > >> "issue" to > > > > >> > >> describe like > > > > >> > >> Russian Contribution, German Contributions, Canada > contribution > > > or > > > > >> > >> others... > > > > >> > >> that's not right way. > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> Yes, Chinese people are not native English speakers, but > they are > > > > >> > >> contributing to > > > > >> > >> most of the ASF projects and others foundation projects very > > > much, > > > > >> > >> involved > > > > >> > >> in many > > > > >> > >> discussion, development, decision and others deeply. > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> Let's try to talk with some data, here's summary about last > 31 > > > days > > > > >> > >> mailing > > > > >> > >> list activity from lists.apache.org < > http://lists.apache.org/> <http://lists.apache.org/ < > http://lists.apache.org/>> > > > > [1]: > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> Project | Emails | Topics | Participants > > > > >> > >> HBase | 610 | 406 | 100 > > > > >> > >> Spark | 412 | 88 | 124 > > > > >> > >> Kylin | 294 | 144 | 61 > > > > >> > >> CarbonData | 852 | 250 | 116 > > > > >> > >> HAWQ | 284 | 109 | 57 > > > > >> > >> Trafodion | 87 | 20 | 25 > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> There are many Chinese people are participating in these > > > projects, > > > > >> you > > > > >> > >> could check > > > > >> > >> each one and see how Chinese people are discussing within > mailing > > > > >> list. > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> It's really not easy for Chinese people, they have to find > out a > > > > way > > > > >> to > > > > >> > >> access > > > > >> > >> gmail or others since there's GFW, they are not native > English > > > > >> speakers, > > > > >> > >> they have limited experiences for open source especially the > > > Apache > > > > >> Way. > > > > >> > >> But they are willing to contribute, willing to participate > global > > > > >> > >> community, and try > > > > >> > >> their best to learn and follow The Apache Way. We should > have the > > > > >> patience > > > > >> > >> for > > > > >> > >> those new comers. > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> As one thing I'm doing now is try to let more people to know > our > > > > >> journey, > > > > >> > >> our experience > > > > >> > >> about how to follow the Apache Way, how we overcome such > > > > >> > >> challenges...through > > > > >> > >> conference, events, meetup, blog, book and so on...and also > > > helping > > > > >> many > > > > >> > >> potential projects > > > > >> > >> who are interesting to join Apache family. > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> I would like suggest to change this topic to something like > "Help > > > > >> > >> Trafodion > > > > >> > >> community" > > > > >> > >> which will help to focus on real issue and your concern (Does > > > > >> Trafodion > > > > >> > >> PMC > > > > >> > >> know > > > > >> > >> this concern?) I'm very happy to help...share with you many > > > > >> articles, > > > > >> > >> session recordings and > > > > >> > >> others about open source, even could try to do some face to > face > > > > >> > >> discussion > > > > >> > >> if necessary:-) > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> [1] https://lists.apache.org <https://lists.apache.org/> < > https://lists.apache.org/ <https://lists.apache.org/>> < > > > > >> https://lists.apache.org <https://lists.apache.org/> < > https://lists.apache.org/ <https://lists.apache.org/>>> > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Gunnar Tapper < > > > > >> tapper.gun...@gmail.com <mailto:tapper.gun...@gmail.com> <mailto: > tapper.gun...@gmail.com <mailto:tapper.gun...@gmail.com>>> > > > > >> > >> wrote: > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > Hi, > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > Using the RocketMQ proposal to start a larger discussion. > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > Apache Trafodion is another project that has a lot of > > > > contribution > > > > >> from > > > > >> > >> > China. > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > One of the struggles I've seen is that the contributors > aren't > > > > that > > > > >> > >> active > > > > >> > >> > on email. Rather, they prefer to use a forum on QQ > > > communicating > > > > in > > > > >> > >> > Chinese. > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > I'm currently the release manager and I must admit that > it's > > > hard > > > > >> not to > > > > >> > >> > see all discussions. Several of us are trying to encourage > > > > >> questions etc > > > > >> > >> > via the email lists but users just prefer Chinese forums. > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > I suspect that Apache will see more of this behavior moving > > > > >> forward, > > > > >> > >> > especially as other proposals come in. So, I'm hoping that > > > > members > > > > >> in > > > > >> > >> China > > > > >> > >> > can help advise on what can be done to address > communication > > > > >> issues like > > > > >> > >> > this. > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > Thanks, > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > Gunnar > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > On Nov 5, 2016 12:21 PM, "Ross Gardler" < > > > > >> ross.gard...@microsoft.com <mailto:ross.gard...@microsoft.com> > <mailto:ross.gard...@microsoft.com <mailto:ross.gard...@microsoft.com>>> > > > > >> > >> > wrote: > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > Some folks may remember my state of the feather session a > > > couple > > > > of > > > > >> > >> years > > > > >> > >> > ago when I called for more awareness of the ASFs role in > open > > > > >> source > > > > >> > >> beyond > > > > >> > >> > English speaking countries. This was prompted by a fact > finding > > > > >> trip to > > > > >> > >> > China. > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > RocketMQ and the team behind it was one of the projects I > > > talked > > > > >> to. We > > > > >> > >> > discussed the Apache way at length, however I have not been > > > > >> involved > > > > >> > >> with > > > > >> > >> > this proposal. > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > I'm excited to see this proposal. I hope we can bring this > > > > project > > > > >> and > > > > >> > >> > welcome the excellent team I met in China into the > foundation. > > > We > > > > >> will > > > > >> > >> need > > > > >> > >> > to work hard to ensure the project is a success. Like other > > > China > > > > >> born > > > > >> > >> > projects we will find that there are cultural differences > that > > > we > > > > >> need > > > > >> > >> to > > > > >> > >> > understand, but this would not be the first time we, as a > > > > >> foundation > > > > >> > >> and as > > > > >> > >> > individuals, accept an opportunity to grow in this way. > Having > > > > met > > > > >> some > > > > >> > >> of > > > > >> > >> > the proposing team I am confident that with the right > mentors > > > the > > > > >> > >> project > > > > >> > >> > can succeed. > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > Bruce, thanks for stepping up to help. > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > Ross > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > --- > > > > >> > >> > Twitter: @rgardler > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > ________________________________ > > > > >> > >> > From: Bruce Snyder <bruce.sny...@gmail.com <mailto: > bruce.sny...@gmail.com> <mailto: > > > > >> bruce.sny...@gmail.com <mailto:bruce.sny...@gmail.com>>> > > > > >> > >> > Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2016 9:21:47 AM > > > > >> > >> > To: general@incubator.apache.org <mailto: > general@incubator.apache.org> <mailto: > > > gene...@incubator.apac > > > > >> he.org <http://he.org/>> > > > > >> > >> > Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] RocketMQ Incubation Proposal > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > Hi John, > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > Proposals for new ASF projects are offered to this list for > > > > >> constructive > > > > >> > >> > feedback. I am happy to help steer the RocketMQ proposal > and > > > > >> project > > > > >> > >> using > > > > >> > >> > your suggestions. > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > First, as explained previously in this discussion thread > by Von > > > > >> Gosling, > > > > >> > >> > there was some company IP that was mistakenly committed to > the > > > > >> Github > > > > >> > >> > repository and through a '...unlucky... scavenging > activity' > > > the > > > > >> history > > > > >> > >> > was > > > > >> > >> > erased, as Von put it. I interpret this to mean that > someone's > > > > >> git-fu > > > > >> > >> went > > > > >> > >> > awry which unintentionally caused the history to be > removed. > > > Von > > > > >> also > > > > >> > >> gives > > > > >> > >> > further explanation of the project history in a response > below. > > > > >> Indeed, > > > > >> > >> > this is an unfortunate situation (and one that I've seen > before > > > > >> with > > > > >> > >> git), > > > > >> > >> > but should this prevent the project from coming to the ASF > to > > > > >> improve > > > > >> > >> and > > > > >> > >> > grow under the auspices of the ASF and The Apache Way? > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > Second, regarding your statement: 'and its a bit > surprising, > > > > since > > > > >> > >> Bruce is > > > > >> > >> > the chair of one of the competitors' -- All projects at > the ASF > > > > >> exist > > > > >> > >> > together regardless of their focus and all projects needs > good > > > > >> mentors, > > > > >> > >> > regardless of whether they are seen as competing or not. My > > > > >> interest in > > > > >> > >> > helping the RocketMQ project is no different than my > interest > > > in > > > > >> > >> continuing > > > > >> > >> > to be involved with the ActiveMQ project. I have nearly 15 > > > years > > > > >> > >> experience > > > > >> > >> > at the ASF and I'm not here to play games and favor one > project > > > > >> over > > > > >> > >> > another. I continue to be involved with the ASF to > collaborate > > > > >> > >> > constructively with others on open source and to foster a > > > > >> community of > > > > >> > >> > inclusiveness where we can all continually learn and grow. > The > > > > ASF > > > > >> is an > > > > >> > >> > inclusive place where even experienced projects can learn > from > > > > new > > > > >> > >> > projects. As I've said for many years, we all come for > code and > > > > >> stay for > > > > >> > >> > the people. My intent is to use my experience to help a new > > > > >> project and > > > > >> > >> > people to the ASF. > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > Third, I think the two questions you have posed are both > good > > > > >> > >> suggestions > > > > >> > >> > for discussion and debate and might even help to improve > the > > > > >> proposal. > > > > >> > >> Even > > > > >> > >> > if there are no solid answers today, I think these would > also > > > be > > > > >> great > > > > >> > >> > ideas to debate around the code base and within the project > > > > moving > > > > >> > >> forward. > > > > >> > >> > I really like the idea of cross-pollination with the > projects > > > you > > > > >> > >> mentioned > > > > >> > >> > as well as others at the ASF. Since I have not worked on > the > > > > >> RocketMQ > > > > >> > >> code > > > > >> > >> > base, I will allow Von to respond to two questions posed by > > > John > > > > >> with > > > > >> > >> his > > > > >> > >> > thoughts: > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > Von, can you please provide your thoughts on the following > two > > > > >> questions > > > > >> > >> > specifically: > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ > > > > >> communities > > > > >> > >> to > > > > >> > >> > build cross platform clients? > > > > >> > >> > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, > Derby as > > > > >> backend > > > > >> > >> > persistence stores? > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > Bruce > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:26 PM, John D. Ament < > > > > >> john.d.am...@gmail.com <mailto:john.d.am...@gmail.com> <mailto: > john.d.am...@gmail.com <mailto:john.d.am...@gmail.com>>> > > > > >> > >> > wrote: > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:43 PM Roman Shaposhnik < > > > > >> ro...@shaposhnik.org <mailto:ro...@shaposhnik.org> <mailto: > ro...@shaposhnik.org <mailto:ro...@shaposhnik.org>> > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > wrote: > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > >> > >> > > > The proposal looks fine in general, but I'm slightly > > > > concerned > > > > >> > >> about: > > > > >> > >> > > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=> < > > > > >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= < > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=>> > > > > >> > >> > https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Falibaba%2FRocketMQ%2Fgraphs% > > > > >> > >> > 2Fcontributors&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com > <http://40microsoft.com/> < > > > > >> http://40microsoft.com/ <http://40microsoft.com/>>% > > > > >> > >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff% > > > > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011 > > > > >> > >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=96ixj1Js5% > > > > >> > >> > 2BytkM0Pru7nABYfTTYimOP5se5POgOMleo%3D&reserved=0 > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > It seems that the model so far has been -- through huge > > > blobs > > > > >> of > > > > >> > >> > > > code over the wall. Given that the composition of > initial > > > > >> committers > > > > >> > >> > > > is all from Alibaba I hope their mentors will spend a > lot > > > of > > > > >> time > > > > >> > >> > > > making sure that "commit early, commit often" mentality > > > > >> prevails. > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > In addition to that, I can't seem to reconcile the > > > statement: > > > > >> > >> > > > "The source code was opened up in 2012." > > > > >> > >> > > > with what I see on GitHub. What am I missing? > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > >> > >> > > So I think these are the same points I was bringing up as > > > well. > > > > >> I > > > > >> > >> > suspect > > > > >> > >> > > its a case where there wasn't a ton of open source > > > development > > > > >> on the > > > > >> > >> > > product and it was kept internal. > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > >> > >> > > I'm still a bit leary about the "relationship with other > > > apache > > > > >> > >> products" > > > > >> > >> > > section still. I'm not interested in seeing how a > podling > > > > >> competes > > > > >> > >> with > > > > >> > >> > > other projects (and its a bit surprising, since Bruce is > the > > > > >> chair of > > > > >> > >> one > > > > >> > >> > > of the competitors), but instead how the podling has > > > synergies > > > > >> with > > > > >> > >> the > > > > >> > >> > > other components. I raised that they're using ASF > projects > > > > >> today in > > > > >> > >> > their > > > > >> > >> > > code base. > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > >> > >> > > Some other ways to address this section: > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > >> > >> > > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or > ActiveMQ > > > > >> > >> communities > > > > >> > >> > to > > > > >> > >> > > build cross platform clients? > > > > >> > >> > > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, > Derby > > > as > > > > >> backend > > > > >> > >> > > persistence stores? > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > >> > >> > > etc.. > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > Thanks, > > > > >> > >> > > > Roman. > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Brian McCallister < > > > > >> > >> bri...@skife.org <mailto:bri...@skife.org> <mailto: > bri...@skife.org <mailto:bri...@skife.org>>> > > > > >> > >> > > > wrote: > > > > >> > >> > > > > +1 ! > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 8:37 AM, Jim Jagielski < > > > > >> j...@jagunet.com <mailto:j...@jagunet.com> <mailto:j...@jagunet.com > <mailto:j...@jagunet.com>>> > > > > >> > >> > wrote: > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > >> Cool. > > > > >> > >> > > > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > >> +1 > > > > >> > >> > > > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > >> > On Nov 3, 2016, at 6:10 PM, Bruce Snyder < > > > > >> > >> bruce.sny...@gmail.com <mailto:bruce.sny...@gmail.com> > <mailto:bruce.sny...@gmail.com <mailto:bruce.sny...@gmail.com>>> > > > > >> > >> > > > wrote: > > > > >> > >> > > > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > >> > Please find below a proposal for a new Incubator > > > podling > > > > >> named > > > > >> > >> > > Apache > > > > >> > >> > > > >> > RocketMQ, a fast, low latency, reliable, scalable, > > > > >> distributed, > > > > >> > >> > easy > > > > >> > >> > > > to > > > > >> > >> > > > >> use > > > > >> > >> > > > >> > message-oriented middleware, especially for > processing > > > > >> large > > > > >> > >> > amounts > > > > >> > >> > > > of > > > > >> > >> > > > >> > streaming data. > > > > >> > >> > > > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > >> > The draft proposal can be found in the wiki at the > > > > >> following > > > > >> > >> URL: > > > > >> > >> > > > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > >> > https://na01.safelinks.protect < > https://na01.safelinks.protect/> > > > > >> ion.outlook.com/?url=https%3A% <http://ion.outlook.com/?url= > https%3A%> <https://na01.safelinks.protec <https://na01.safelinks.protec/> > > > > >> tion.outlook.com/?url=https%3A% <http://tion.outlook.com/?url= > https%3A%>> > > > > >> > >> 2F% > > > > >> > >> > 2Fwiki.apache.org <http://2fwiki.apache.org/> < > http://2fwiki.apache.org/ <http://2fwiki.apache.org/>>%2F > > > > >> incubator%2FRocketMQProposal&data=02% > > > > >> > >> > 7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com < > http://40microsoft.com/> <http://40microsoft.com/ <http://40microsoft.com/ > > > > > > >%7Cd1 > > > > >> 2890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff% > > > > >> > >> > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011 > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176 > > > > >> 036&sdata= > > > > >> > >> > xjsmhUA5%2Ftnl5HnA4LtQnVGa5ddYybjaKIe3C > RgS9S0%3D&reserved=0 > > > > >> > >> > > > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > >> > Below, please find the text for the proposal > below. > > > > >> > >> > > > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > >> > Thanks, > > > > >> > >> > > > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > >> > Bruce > > > > >> > >> > > > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > >> ------------------------------ > > > > >> ------------------------------ > > > > >> > >> > --------- > > > > >> > >> > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: > general-unsubscribe@incubator. > > > > >> apache.org <http://apache.org/> <mailto:general-unsubscribe@ > incubator.apache.org <mailto:general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org>> > > > > >> > >> > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail: > > > > >> general-help@incubator.apache. > > > > >> > >> org > > > > >> > >> > > > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > ------------------------------ > > > ------------------------------ > > > > >> > >> --------- > > > > >> > >> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator. > > > > >> apache.org <http://apache.org/> <mailto:general-unsubscribe@ > incubator.apache.org <mailto:general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org>> > > > > >> > >> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: > > > > >> general-h...@incubator.apache.org <mailto:general-help@ > incubator.apache.org> <mailto:general-help@incubator <mailto: > general-help@incubator> > > > > >> .apache.org <http://apache.org/>> > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > -- > > > > >> > >> > perl -e 'print > > > > >> > >> > unpack("u30","D0G)U8V4\@4VYY9& > 5R\"F)R=6-E+G-N>61E<D\!G;6%I;\ > > > > >> "YC;VT*" > > > > >> > >> );' > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > ActiveMQ in Action: https://na01.safelinks.protect < > https://na01.safelinks.protect/> > > > > >> ion.outlook.com/?url= <http://ion.outlook.com/?url=> < > https://na01.safelinks.protec <https://na01.safelinks.protec/> > > > > >> tion.outlook.com/?url= <http://tion.outlook.com/?url=>> > > > > >> > >> > http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F2je6cQ&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler% > 40m > > > > >> > >> icrosoft.com <http://icrosoft.com/> <http://icrosoft.com/ < > http://icrosoft.com/>>% > > > > >> > >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff% > > > > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011 > > > > >> > >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=WObI4mpJLTWW%2Fg6% > > > > >> > >> > 2BNB3ERPQJ6JVFuM0u4fWySbWWpGI%3D&reserved=0 > > > > >> > >> > Blog: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=> < > > > > >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= < > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=>> > > > > >> > >> > http%3A%2F%2Fbsnyder.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler% > 40mi > > > > >> crosoft.com <http://crosoft.com/> <http://40microsoft.com/ < > http://40microsoft.com/>> > > > > >> > >> % > > > > >> > >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff% > > > > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011 > > > > >> > >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata= > > > > 9EWI%2FF%2FgDyaU9qybAVHRZ% > > > > >> > >> > 2FigY6o%2FjkAuZxilJ8uZMEg%3D&reserved=0 < > > > https://na01.safelinks <https://na01.safelinks/> > > > > < > > > > >> https://na01.safelinks/ <https://na01.safelinks/>>. > > > > >> > >> > protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F& > <http://protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F&;> < > > > > >> http://protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F&; > <http://protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F&;>> > > > > >> > >> > data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com < > http://40microsoft.com/> < > > > > >> http://40microsoft.com/ <http://40microsoft.com/>>% > 7Cd12890186efe4c > > > > >> > >> 6e60c908d40597 > > > > >> > >> > dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0% > > > > >> > >> > 7C636139597197176036&sdata= > > > > >> > >> > Vlc0l%2FVfE997etkGwBIVJ0wSQ6eDz3bPoW > zeWLTl6X8%3D&reserved=0> > > > > >> > >> > Twitter: https://na01.safelinks. > protection.outlook.com/?url= <https://na01.safelinks. > protection.outlook.com/?url=> < > > > > >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= < > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=>> > > > > >> > >> > http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fbrucesnyder&data=02%7C01% > > > > >> > >> > 7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com <http://40microsoft.com/> < > http://40microsoft.com/ <http://40microsoft.com/>>%7Cd1 > > > > >> 2890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff% > > > > >> > >> > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011 > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176 > > > > >> 036&sdata= > > > > >> > >> > iCFOJzNIqieH5fJ%2BL6%2BxaVjgi8q2hiqjlc2VVerPr40%3D& > reserved=0 > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > Gunnar > > > > > *If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're > right.* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Gunnar > > > *If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.* > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Thanks, > > > > Gunnar > > If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right. > > -- Thanks, Gunnar *If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*
