Regardless of the language being used, keeping discussions on-list can be hard work. In practice it requires the core members of the community to doggedly refuse to answer questions that are not asked in the correct forum.
I can see how that doggedness might be perceived as rudeness. Total speculation here (and apologies if I offend by making cultural generalizations) but are some cultures less inclined to be "rude" and force discussions onto lists? By the way, I'll offer a data point that contradicts my hypothesis: I mentored Apache Kylin, the majority of whose committers are in China, and which has a large community in China, and I saw numerous occasions where committers replied to emails written in Chinese and asked the sender to use English. Julian On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 10:32 AM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gun...@gmail.com> wrote: > A few things... > > 1. There's a huge thriving Apache community in China that operates outside > of "everything happens on mailing lists." > 2. As a committer in an incubator, I want to have insight into those > communities. > 3. I need to figure out if there's anything that can be done to encourage > this class of contributors to engage more with the worldwide community > since they are a huge source of potential committers. > 4. The language barrier is a real issue where language-to-English > translators seem to work fine but not vice versa. > > So, in essence: new interesting challenges in community building. > > Gunnar > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Jeff Genender <jgenen...@savoirtech.com> > wrote: > >> and you got your answer…. what changes? >> >> Jeff >> >> >> > On Nov 11, 2016, at 10:44 AM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gun...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> > >> > Hang on a second. This was not a discussion about RocketMQ. I asked a >> question on the incubators list from a larger-picture perspective using >> Trafodion and RocketMQ as examples. As noted, neither Raynold nor I are >> part of the RocketMQ incubator so let's not ding that project for opinions >> expressed by individuals. >> > >> > Thanks, >> > >> > Gunnar >> > >> > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 7:50 AM, Jeff Genender <jgenen...@apache.org >> <mailto:jgenen...@apache.org>> wrote: >> > >> > > On Nov 11, 2016, at 12:42 AM, Reynold Xin <r...@apache.org <mailto: >> r...@apache.org>> wrote: >> > > I'd avoid using the argument that English will bring more users, as it >> is not defensible and risk being interpreted as western arrogance. >> Afterall, three out of the six largest Internet companies (by market cap) >> are currently in mainland China, and they all have enormous daily active >> users even though they are targeting primarily Chinese. >> > >> > The world is much bigger than a discussion for where the largest ISPs >> reside. ;-) Lets not degrade this discussion into an argument about whose >> country is the best. That does nobody any good and its straw man. >> > >> > I think you are the one being defensive and if you read what I said, as >> I stated it pretty clear in my first few sentences and through out my >> statement. Read it again. That was certainly *not* my argument and my >> argument was most *definitely* defensible. >> > >> > I never said English will bring in more users than China. I *did* say >> that if you want more international/cross-border users, you will need to >> use a more international language. Outside of China I will also say that >> the rest of the world mostly does not know Chinese. >> > >> > For the record, I am a messaging lover. I am a committer/PMC on >> ActiveMQ, and I love to play with Kafka and other MQs outside the ASF such >> as RabbitMQ. I can honestly tell you directly that if your discussions are >> in Chinese, I will likely never play with your software. Now based on your >> tone, I am guessing that likely you do not care. That is fine. But there >> are a lot of folks who will be in the same boat as me. *You* need to >> define on who your want your audience to be. >> > >> > You can call me (and others who don’t speak Chinese) western “arrogance” >> because our main language is an international one. But it’s not going to >> change your situation or position. >> > >> > I’m not really sure of why you are coming to members@ asking advice, >> then getting defensive to those about answers that you don’t want to hear. >> What responses were you looking for? Were you looking that the rest of the >> members who mostly don’t speak Chinese to answer that its a great idea? If >> this is the attitude you will take, then you are wasting our time in >> attempting to answer you. >> > >> > Jeff >> > >> > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 11:14 PM, Jeff Genender <jgenen...@apache.org >> <mailto:jgenen...@apache.org> <mailto:jgenen...@apache.org <mailto: >> jgenen...@apache.org>>> wrote: >> > > I would think that English is generally used because its the most >> international language, not because its the most used in the world. Thus >> it helps cross borders for communication. At the end of the day, I think >> you need to look at your community and ask if you want it to cross borders >> or not. Do you want worldwide contribution (and adoption)? I can tell you >> that I glean a lot of information from the mail lists when I run into >> problems or issues using Apache software. If the discussions are in >> Chinese, you may miss a lot of people who can be a part of the discussion >> from outside of China. I think you really need to think about who you want >> your users to be and how you want your product adopted. >> > > >> > > In addition, this is an incubated project. AFAICT, the champion >> doesn’t speak Chinese, and I am wild-guessing maybe 2 of the mentors do. >> This means the other mentors may have a difficult time steering the project >> when they are needed. It makes it difficult for the champion to asses any >> problems without having someone notify him of a translated issue. In the >> unlikely event that the project requires input from the incubation PMC or, >> the board for that matter, it would be very difficult to get a proper >> insight into the issues without have solid knowledge of the language. >> > > >> > > I personally don’t know of any rule or regulation that locks down a >> language and perhaps a board member can chime in on that. But my .02 is >> that if I were bringing a project to Apache, my thoughts about community >> would be getting as many people and users involved as possible. If you >> don’t use a more cross-border/international language, then I believe that >> you may ultimately be hindering your project beyond your borders. I think >> that would be a shame. OTOH, maybe your desire is to keep RocketMQ a >> Chinese piece of software. I guess that is ok too… but I would be >> interested in why. >> > > >> > > Just my usual .02. >> > > >> > > Jeff >> > > >> > > > On Nov 10, 2016, at 11:53 PM, Tom Barber <t...@spicule.co.uk <mailto: >> t...@spicule.co.uk> <mailto:t...@spicule.co.uk <mailto:t...@spicule.co.uk>>> >> wrote: >> > > > >> > > > I believe I saw something the other day where someone was talking >> about diverse languages on mailing lists. personally I think it's okay but >> obviously it decreases the chance of participation of others. >> > > > >> > > > of course the old saying "if it wasn't discussed on the list it >> never happened" didn't mention the language. >> > > > >> > > > Thought must be taken for jira and code comments as well. how would >> non Chinese speaking people follow development? >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > On 11 Nov 2016 06:45, "Reynold Xin" <r...@apache.org <mailto: >> r...@apache.org> <mailto:r...@apache.org <mailto:r...@apache.org>> >> <mailto:r...@apache.org <mailto:r...@apache.org> <mailto:r...@apache.org >> <mailto:r...@apache.org>>>> wrote: >> > > > Adding members@ >> > > > >> > > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <r...@apache.org >> <mailto:r...@apache.org> <mailto:r...@apache.org <mailto:r...@apache.org>> >> <mailto:r...@apache.org <mailto:r...@apache.org> <mailto:r...@apache.org >> <mailto:r...@apache.org>>>> wrote: >> > > > >> > > > > To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that consist >> > > > > primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or put >> it >> > > > > differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must be >> in >> > > > > English? >> > > > > >> > > > > I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English, as >> English >> > > > > is one of the most common languages. However, many talented >> software >> > > > > developers in China don't have the sufficient level of proficiency >> when it >> > > > > comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China is >> much lower >> > > > > than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to learn >> English >> > > > > as for English speakers to learn Chinese. >> > > > > >> > > > > One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will also >> exclude >> > > > > those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number >> of native >> > > > > speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1 >> according >> > > > > to Wikipedia. >> > > > > >> > > > > Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other >> countries, >> > > > > except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger. >> > > > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Thanks, >> > >> > Gunnar >> > If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right. >> >> > > > -- > Thanks, > > Gunnar > *If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.* --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
