On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:17 PM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gun...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi, > > Copy/paste into a Translator, which detected the language automatically: In > practice, the question of the language to use from a list of diffusion is > specious. English it the lingua franca of the 21st century. > > Du kan göra precis samma sak med ett minoritetsspråk som svenska. Språk är > inte längre ett hinder. > > Take a look at how the Minecraft generation (I'm blessed with one) > operates. They have no issues to jump onto servers that use languages they > don't understand and then communicate using Translators. It's pretty > awesome. Real-time translators are coming. See Skype Translator for an > example. > > So, I'd argue that lingua franca is already becoming a thing of the past as > people get more comfortable with the idea of using them in everyday life. > Heck, just take a look at how people interact on Facebook these days -- the > translate function is extremely cool. > > You can view language as a barrier to community building or you can use > technology to remove the barrier. > > Based on this discussion, I am going to add a new section to the main > project page that discusses communication in different languages > encouraging people to write questions in the own language if they're not > comfortable with English -- I rather have the question than no interaction. > > I'll tell them that the community uses translator software when needed and > that responses is likely to be in English so that they can translate back > as needed. A smalll first step but an important one.
I guess you mean that in the user@ lists. That should be fine in my understanding from the discussions here and there. But as Shane and others pointed out, dev@ lists should be using English or Globish-like for good reasons. I would encourage committers to do so. Just my two cents, Woonsan > > Thanks, > > Gunnar > > > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 12:30 PM, Emmanuel Lécharny <elecha...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> En pratique, la question de la langue à utiliser sur une liste de >> diffusion est spécieuse. L'anglais est la Lingua Franca du 21ème siècle. >> >> >> And if you haven't understood what I wrote in my native language, which >> is understood by around 500 million people around the globe, I guess you >> get my implicit point ;-) >> >> >> More seriously, it's not about how good are developpers in english : >> many of the Apache developpers are not english native speakers, and we >> do many mistakes. That does not matter too much : nobody will blame >> anyone for that. At some point, code is not in english, but in C, Java, >> Scala, etc... If you work as an IT person, you already have to face >> english in almost all the technical documents found on internet. Take >> the RFCs for instance : have thay all been translated to chinese ? >> >> >> But the most important thing : we are all about community. It's pretty >> hard to build it if you split it in 2, or more, because there is a >> language issue. It's going to be hard to communicate between a split >> community, way harder than using a very basic english... >> >> >> >> Le 11/11/16 à 07:45, Reynold Xin a écrit : >> > Adding members@ >> > >> > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <r...@apache.org> wrote: >> > >> >> To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that consist >> >> primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or put it >> >> differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must be in >> >> English? >> >> >> >> I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English, as >> English >> >> is one of the most common languages. However, many talented software >> >> developers in China don't have the sufficient level of proficiency when >> it >> >> comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China is much >> lower >> >> than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to learn >> English >> >> as for English speakers to learn Chinese. >> >> >> >> One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will also >> exclude >> >> those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number of >> native >> >> speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1 >> according >> >> to Wikipedia. >> >> >> >> Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other countries, >> >> except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Luke Han <luke...@apache.org> wrote: >> >> >> >>> Hi Gunnar, >> >>> >> >>> I don't think your point is right, one community's problem (maybe not >> >>> real, >> >>> but just >> >>> refer to what you mentioned) could NOT represent all contributions from >> >>> China, >> >>> or any other territories from all of the world. >> >>> >> >>> This will misleading people to ignore contributions from Chinese and >> LABEL >> >>> for such >> >>> contributors and committers..as your pattern, there are tons of >> "issue" to >> >>> describe like >> >>> Russian Contribution, German Contributions, Canada contribution or >> >>> others... >> >>> that's not right way. >> >>> >> >>> Yes, Chinese people are not native English speakers, but they are >> >>> contributing to >> >>> most of the ASF projects and others foundation projects very much, >> >>> involved >> >>> in many >> >>> discussion, development, decision and others deeply. >> >>> >> >>> Let's try to talk with some data, here's summary about last 31 days >> >>> mailing >> >>> list activity from lists.apache.org [1]: >> >>> >> >>> Project | Emails | Topics | Participants >> >>> HBase | 610 | 406 | 100 >> >>> Spark | 412 | 88 | 124 >> >>> Kylin | 294 | 144 | 61 >> >>> CarbonData | 852 | 250 | 116 >> >>> HAWQ | 284 | 109 | 57 >> >>> Trafodion | 87 | 20 | 25 >> >>> >> >>> There are many Chinese people are participating in these projects, you >> >>> could check >> >>> each one and see how Chinese people are discussing within mailing list. >> >>> >> >>> It's really not easy for Chinese people, they have to find out a way to >> >>> access >> >>> gmail or others since there's GFW, they are not native English >> speakers, >> >>> they have limited experiences for open source especially the Apache >> Way. >> >>> But they are willing to contribute, willing to participate global >> >>> community, and try >> >>> their best to learn and follow The Apache Way. We should have the >> patience >> >>> for >> >>> those new comers. >> >>> >> >>> As one thing I'm doing now is try to let more people to know our >> journey, >> >>> our experience >> >>> about how to follow the Apache Way, how we overcome such >> >>> challenges...through >> >>> conference, events, meetup, blog, book and so on...and also helping >> many >> >>> potential projects >> >>> who are interesting to join Apache family. >> >>> >> >>> I would like suggest to change this topic to something like "Help >> >>> Trafodion >> >>> community" >> >>> which will help to focus on real issue and your concern (Does Trafodion >> >>> PMC >> >>> know >> >>> this concern?) I'm very happy to help...share with you many articles, >> >>> session recordings and >> >>> others about open source, even could try to do some face to face >> >>> discussion >> >>> if necessary:-) >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> [1] https://lists.apache.org <https://lists.apache.org> >> >>> >> >>> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Gunnar Tapper < >> tapper.gun...@gmail.com> >> >>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> Hi, >> >>>> >> >>>> Using the RocketMQ proposal to start a larger discussion. >> >>>> >> >>>> Apache Trafodion is another project that has a lot of contribution >> from >> >>>> China. >> >>>> >> >>>> One of the struggles I've seen is that the contributors aren't that >> >>> active >> >>>> on email. Rather, they prefer to use a forum on QQ communicating in >> >>>> Chinese. >> >>>> >> >>>> I'm currently the release manager and I must admit that it's hard not >> to >> >>>> see all discussions. Several of us are trying to encourage questions >> etc >> >>>> via the email lists but users just prefer Chinese forums. >> >>>> >> >>>> I suspect that Apache will see more of this behavior moving forward, >> >>>> especially as other proposals come in. So, I'm hoping that members in >> >>> China >> >>>> can help advise on what can be done to address communication issues >> like >> >>>> this. >> >>>> >> >>>> Thanks, >> >>>> >> >>>> Gunnar >> >>>> >> >>>> On Nov 5, 2016 12:21 PM, "Ross Gardler" <ross.gard...@microsoft.com> >> >>>> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> Some folks may remember my state of the feather session a couple of >> >>> years >> >>>> ago when I called for more awareness of the ASFs role in open source >> >>> beyond >> >>>> English speaking countries. This was prompted by a fact finding trip >> to >> >>>> China. >> >>>> >> >>>> RocketMQ and the team behind it was one of the projects I talked to. >> We >> >>>> discussed the Apache way at length, however I have not been involved >> >>> with >> >>>> this proposal. >> >>>> >> >>>> I'm excited to see this proposal. I hope we can bring this project and >> >>>> welcome the excellent team I met in China into the foundation. We will >> >>> need >> >>>> to work hard to ensure the project is a success. Like other China born >> >>>> projects we will find that there are cultural differences that we need >> >>> to >> >>>> understand, but this would not be the first time we, as a foundation >> >>> and as >> >>>> individuals, accept an opportunity to grow in this way. Having met >> some >> >>> of >> >>>> the proposing team I am confident that with the right mentors the >> >>> project >> >>>> can succeed. >> >>>> >> >>>> Bruce, thanks for stepping up to help. >> >>>> >> >>>> Ross >> >>>> >> >>>> --- >> >>>> Twitter: @rgardler >> >>>> >> >>>> ________________________________ >> >>>> From: Bruce Snyder <bruce.sny...@gmail.com> >> >>>> Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2016 9:21:47 AM >> >>>> To: general@incubator.apache.org >> >>>> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] RocketMQ Incubation Proposal >> >>>> >> >>>> Hi John, >> >>>> >> >>>> Proposals for new ASF projects are offered to this list for >> constructive >> >>>> feedback. I am happy to help steer the RocketMQ proposal and project >> >>> using >> >>>> your suggestions. >> >>>> >> >>>> First, as explained previously in this discussion thread by Von >> Gosling, >> >>>> there was some company IP that was mistakenly committed to the Github >> >>>> repository and through a '...unlucky... scavenging activity' the >> history >> >>>> was >> >>>> erased, as Von put it. I interpret this to mean that someone's git-fu >> >>> went >> >>>> awry which unintentionally caused the history to be removed. Von also >> >>> gives >> >>>> further explanation of the project history in a response below. >> Indeed, >> >>>> this is an unfortunate situation (and one that I've seen before with >> >>> git), >> >>>> but should this prevent the project from coming to the ASF to improve >> >>> and >> >>>> grow under the auspices of the ASF and The Apache Way? >> >>>> >> >>>> Second, regarding your statement: 'and its a bit surprising, since >> >>> Bruce is >> >>>> the chair of one of the competitors' -- All projects at the ASF exist >> >>>> together regardless of their focus and all projects needs good >> mentors, >> >>>> regardless of whether they are seen as competing or not. My interest >> in >> >>>> helping the RocketMQ project is no different than my interest in >> >>> continuing >> >>>> to be involved with the ActiveMQ project. I have nearly 15 years >> >>> experience >> >>>> at the ASF and I'm not here to play games and favor one project over >> >>>> another. I continue to be involved with the ASF to collaborate >> >>>> constructively with others on open source and to foster a community of >> >>>> inclusiveness where we can all continually learn and grow. The ASF is >> an >> >>>> inclusive place where even experienced projects can learn from new >> >>>> projects. As I've said for many years, we all come for code and stay >> for >> >>>> the people. My intent is to use my experience to help a new project >> and >> >>>> people to the ASF. >> >>>> >> >>>> Third, I think the two questions you have posed are both good >> >>> suggestions >> >>>> for discussion and debate and might even help to improve the proposal. >> >>> Even >> >>>> if there are no solid answers today, I think these would also be great >> >>>> ideas to debate around the code base and within the project moving >> >>> forward. >> >>>> I really like the idea of cross-pollination with the projects you >> >>> mentioned >> >>>> as well as others at the ASF. Since I have not worked on the RocketMQ >> >>> code >> >>>> base, I will allow Von to respond to two questions posed by John with >> >>> his >> >>>> thoughts: >> >>>> >> >>>> Von, can you please provide your thoughts on the following two >> questions >> >>>> specifically: >> >>>> >> >>>> - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ >> communities >> >>> to >> >>>> build cross platform clients? >> >>>> - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as backend >> >>>> persistence stores? >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Bruce >> >>>> >> >>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:26 PM, John D. Ament <john.d.am...@gmail.com >> > >> >>>> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:43 PM Roman Shaposhnik < >> ro...@shaposhnik.org >> >>>>> wrote: >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> The proposal looks fine in general, but I'm slightly concerned >> >>> about: >> >>>>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= >> >>>> https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Falibaba%2FRocketMQ%2Fgraphs% >> >>>> 2Fcontributors&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com% >> >>>> 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011 >> >>>> db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=96ixj1Js5% >> >>>> 2BytkM0Pru7nABYfTTYimOP5se5POgOMleo%3D&reserved=0 >> >>>>>> It seems that the model so far has been -- through huge blobs of >> >>>>>> code over the wall. Given that the composition of initial committers >> >>>>>> is all from Alibaba I hope their mentors will spend a lot of time >> >>>>>> making sure that "commit early, commit often" mentality prevails. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> In addition to that, I can't seem to reconcile the statement: >> >>>>>> "The source code was opened up in 2012." >> >>>>>> with what I see on GitHub. What am I missing? >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> So I think these are the same points I was bringing up as well. I >> >>>> suspect >> >>>>> its a case where there wasn't a ton of open source development on the >> >>>>> product and it was kept internal. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> I'm still a bit leary about the "relationship with other apache >> >>> products" >> >>>>> section still. I'm not interested in seeing how a podling competes >> >>> with >> >>>>> other projects (and its a bit surprising, since Bruce is the chair of >> >>> one >> >>>>> of the competitors), but instead how the podling has synergies with >> >>> the >> >>>>> other components. I raised that they're using ASF projects today in >> >>>> their >> >>>>> code base. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Some other ways to address this section: >> >>>>> >> >>>>> - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ >> >>> communities >> >>>> to >> >>>>> build cross platform clients? >> >>>>> - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as >> backend >> >>>>> persistence stores? >> >>>>> >> >>>>> etc.. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> Thanks, >> >>>>>> Roman. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Brian McCallister < >> >>> bri...@skife.org> >> >>>>>> wrote: >> >>>>>>> +1 ! >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 8:37 AM, Jim Jagielski <j...@jagunet.com> >> >>>> wrote: >> >>>>>>>> Cool. >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> +1 >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> On Nov 3, 2016, at 6:10 PM, Bruce Snyder < >> >>> bruce.sny...@gmail.com> >> >>>>>> wrote: >> >>>>>>>>> Please find below a proposal for a new Incubator podling named >> >>>>> Apache >> >>>>>>>>> RocketMQ, a fast, low latency, reliable, scalable, distributed, >> >>>> easy >> >>>>>> to >> >>>>>>>> use >> >>>>>>>>> message-oriented middleware, especially for processing large >> >>>> amounts >> >>>>>> of >> >>>>>>>>> streaming data. >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> The draft proposal can be found in the wiki at the following >> >>> URL: >> >>>>>>>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A% >> >>> 2F% >> >>>> 2Fwiki.apache.org%2Fincubator%2FRocketMQProposal&data=02% >> >>>> 7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597 >> dcff% >> >>>> 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0% >> 7C636139597197176036&sdata= >> >>>> xjsmhUA5%2Ftnl5HnA4LtQnVGa5ddYybjaKIe3CRgS9S0%3D&reserved=0 >> >>>>>>>>> Below, please find the text for the proposal below. >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Thanks, >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Bruce >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >>>> --------- >> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >> >>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache. >> >>> org >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >>> --------- >> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >> >>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> -- >> >>>> perl -e 'print >> >>>> unpack("u30","D0G)U8V4\@4VYY9&5R\"F)R=6-E+G-N>61E<D\!G;6%I;\"YC;VT*" >> >>> );' >> >>>> ActiveMQ in Action: https://na01.safelinks. >> protection.outlook.com/?url= >> >>>> http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F2je6cQ&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40m >> >>> icrosoft.com% >> >>>> 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011 >> >>>> db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=WObI4mpJLTWW%2Fg6% >> >>>> 2BNB3ERPQJ6JVFuM0u4fWySbWWpGI%3D&reserved=0 >> >>>> Blog: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= >> >>>> http%3A%2F%2Fbsnyder.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40 >> microsoft.com >> >>> % >> >>>> 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011 >> >>>> db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=9EWI%2FF%2FgDyaU9qybAVHRZ% >> >>>> 2FigY6o%2FjkAuZxilJ8uZMEg%3D&reserved=0 <https://na01.safelinks. >> >>>> protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F& >> >>>> data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c >> >>> 6e60c908d40597 >> >>>> dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0% >> >>>> 7C636139597197176036&sdata= >> >>>> Vlc0l%2FVfE997etkGwBIVJ0wSQ6eDz3bPoWzeWLTl6X8%3D&reserved=0> >> >>>> Twitter: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= >> >>>> http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fbrucesnyder&data=02%7C01% >> >>>> 7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff% >> >>>> 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0% >> 7C636139597197176036&sdata= >> >>>> iCFOJzNIqieH5fJ%2BL6%2BxaVjgi8q2hiqjlc2VVerPr40%3D&reserved=0 >> >>>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Emmanuel Lecharny >> >> Symas.com >> directory.apache.org >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org >> >> > > > -- > Thanks, > > Gunnar > *If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.* --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
