On 6 Oct 2006, at 21:34, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
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Mark Little wrote:
1) ASF is a meritocracy.
And people learn by questioning, not by being passive observers!
Actually, I think that's patently false. You never learned
anything from a book? Or a lecture? Or a discussion?
Hmmm. Now isn't it a discussion that we've been having?
And people gain merit by doing, not by learning. The
learning comes first, naturally. :-)
Kind of depends what's involved in "doing".
And everyone makes mistakes (including you, myself and people in
Apache). To believe otherwise is to not live in the real world.
True enough.
To not question others is to live in a totalitarian regime.
No, that's when you're not *allowed* to question.
Quite right ;-)
Being able
to but not doing so is of debatable utility.
I think you made my point better than I did. Thanks :-)
Assuming you're
right without asking questions, in opposition to others with
more experience in the subject, is likewise typically suboptimal.
Oh, I did ask questions. Remember the first email?
So let's try to take this to some "logical" conclusion: you're saying
that just because person A says something that person B disagrees
with, person B should then accept that because person A is somehow
more experienced?
I don't think that's Leo's point. I suspect the one he's
trying to make is that the above is a perfect opportunity
to ask those questions you mentioned, rather than dogmatically
assuming irreducible incompatibility.
Of course, you might want to check your facts. :-)
;)
Even factoring experience in (and experience ranges across a lot of
different areas, and I admit to being lacking in Apache experience
compared to many others, but certainly not lacking in the field of
computing), that's a crazy way to think.
'Even factoring in?' Leo's whole point is about experience;
it's not something to be 'factored into' the discussion with
him. And experience with Apache is the issue here, not
general industry-wide credentials. And I don't think it's
particularly crazy for someone who is less-experienced to
provisionally assume a more-experienced person is correct
when there's a difference of opinion. Would you argue with
a haematologist about the meaning of rouleaux formations
in a blood sample, even if you're a qualified dermatologist?
Or would you perhaps assume he knew what he was talking
about, and maybe ask questions about the subject?
I did ask, now didn't I?
I'm sorry but I don't recall reading in any of the Apache literature
that a frontal lobotomy was a pre-requisite to joining!
That's more than a little over the top. I doubt remarks
like that are going to help foster community and peer
relationships.
Given the previous comments in the email, I disagree. But then you
probably expected me to say that anyway.
So lemmings are the kind of individuals you want in Apache? People
who just follow without questioning?
More of the same, alas.
I think your comments show a level of naivete and to be honest, are
uncalled for.
I hope you won't be surprised or insulted if anyone
extends you the same courtesy.
That's fair enough. At this stage none of us are talking entirely
objectively.
Processes (governments, corporate, open source etc.) grown and evolve
because people question them and push the boundaries. I think the
original point of this thread was such a push.
If so, I respectfully suggest that you might consider
finding a different way of expressing yourself. This
one seems to have polarised some people against you.
Going back to facts: you need to get all of yours right first. I (and
others) did try other avenues of expressing and querying first.
Several. Over the course of weeks. This was the last frustrated
effort before giving up, to be perfectly honest!
And that's something that can laid wholly at their doors;
I assume you meant "cannot be".
you need to take some responsibility for it as well.
I'm not (and won't) point the finger of blame at anyone. As I said to
Leo, we all make mistakes. I hope that as a community we can learn
from this and try to move on with no negative feelings: I certainly
don't have any.
That mindset somehow tends to start with "the people around me are
trying to do the Right Thing", if you can't bring yourself around
to that world view, you might as well look for a more productive
environment right now.
Huh? OK, so you obviously live in some alternative reality to the
real world ;-) I'm happy to take this offline, because it is no
longer relevant to this discussion.
I disagree. Leo's remark is spot-on and highly relevant. If
you are not interested in learning how things are done at the
ASF, and choose to assume axiomatically you know better than the
people who have been there for years, then you shouldn't be here.
I didn't assume that. What I did assume was that people make mistakes
and that certain actions appeared to be against Apache rules/
processes. Bringing those issues to the fore (either to be told my
suppositions were wrong, or for things to be corrected) was the ONLY
reason behind the email I sent. Maybe this isn't what Leo meant, but
his comment read like I should have just accepted what was happening
in silence and assumed it was the Right Thing.
CeltixFire will not succeed here without fitting into the Apache
milieu. Variety is welcomed; fundamental and incompatible
differences of view are not.
Secondly, I suggest you learn, and learn right now, to stop writing
things along the lines of ``is random denial of initial committers
typical?'' or ``I've used the Redhat/JBoss example already,
Get off your soapbox and stop trying to make this personal. To the
best of my knowledge, until this email this entire thread was not
personal. It was about people trying to figure out the right thing to
do in a complex situation.
I think Leo was saying, in his blunt way, the same thing I
did above: intentional or not, your manner of expression
is not regarded by some as conducive to friendly discourse.
It's definitely not a one-way street either. I can blame frustration
on my part, plus the fact that email is a poor medium for these kinds
of discussions. I'm prepared to draw a line under this and move on a
little bit more enlightened (positive statement, so don't
misinterpret) about the Apache process and community.
Well if you're ever willing to enter into a reasoned discussion about
this as everyone else appears to be, let me know. Until then I'll
treat this email as static.
You might want to check your facts.
No comment. I think we should just move on.
Mark.
- --
#ken P-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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