Hi Bobby,
Can't we solve some of these issues by just moving the mailinglist to a better
system with good archiving? That should solve both the spam issue and some of
the usability issues. I have looked at bit at groups.io since it is used in a
project I'm contributing to in my spare time and it seems like a good hybrid
between a mailinglist and a forum. They seem to have good support for grouping
by topic, hash tag filtering, RSS feeds, and plenty of integrations.
I really can't see what a Discourse-style forum would give us that you can't
get from an email list with a good archive. I generally find forums at least as
annoying as email archives when going back to look for information about a
topic. The lack of threading within topics tends to make discussion really hard
to follow, which usually isn't an issue in a well-behaved email list.
Is the barrier of entry that people feel like the list is to "formal" or think
that their questions are stupid? I'm not convinced that the latter would be solved by
switching to a forum-style system like Discourse. A less formal chat system in addition
to the list might be a better way to lower the barrier of entry.
I have found the Slack (despite the poor threading) system used by Zephyr very useful
when debugging/developing drivers. It has been a convenient low-latency channel when
working on the same subsystem as other people in the project and a general "I have
seen this weird issue, has anyone else seen anything like it?". It's not a complete
substitute for email lists though.
Cheers,
Andreas
On 06/07/2020 03:34, Bobby Bruce via gem5-dev wrote:
I personally see the problem of people not answering questions to be a fixed constant
regardless as to what medium we choose. It's a shame, but it's a "people
problem" which I agree won't be solved by deploying new platforms.
The reason for moving from the mailing-list is the mailing-list just doesn't
appear to be an appropriate technology for tech support. I get emails every
other week from someone who struggles to join gem5-users, and it normally turns
out their gem5-user emails are ending up in spam. It's difficult to search
through the mail archive to see if your question has been asked previously,
it's hard to format your messages correctly, impossible to tag or categorize,
and, I've already had students tell me they feel like reaching out over the
gem5-users mailing list is awkward and embarrassing for the type of questions
they want to ask. As a result, they just avoid doing so.
My issue with slack is it's got poor threading, and I'd quite like a good
archive of answered questions for people to search. Though I'm not opposed to
it as it has the plus of being popular (as shallow as it may be, I find going
with the most popular solution to a problem is often the best course-of-action).
--
Dr. Bobby R. Bruce
Room 2235,
Kemper Hall, UC Davis
Davis,
CA, 95616
web: https://www.bobbybruce.net
On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 3:45 PM Gabe Black via gem5-dev
<[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
I haven't used Slack before (yeah, I know, behind the times :-), but I 100%
agree with that last part. Having the perfect medium won't help if there aren't
enough people around to actually use it to answer questions.
Gabe
On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 9:45 AM Andreas Sandberg via gem5-dev
<[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
I would probably be more in favour of a split email+Slack/Teams
approach. Email works well for most discussion, but I like the quick
more informal communication in a chat system. I have generally been very
happy with the way Slack has worked when I have contributed to Zephyr in
my spare time. As long as you have a threading email client, I can't see
any benefits of a forum other than archiving (services like
groups.io<http://groups.io>
seems to solve that).
I think we are fooling ourselves if we think switching from email to a
different medium is going to solve underlying problem the there is a
small number of experienced users that answer most of the questions on
the lists.
Cheers,
Andreas
On 10/06/2020 16:32, Daniel Gerzhoy via gem5-dev wrote:
I think this is a great idea! Emails threads aren't a great way to do this
just because there's no mechanism for well formatted responses to
particular points in someone's questions, posting code, or things like
"upvoting" responses.
I see Daniel's point about less engagement if we move it to a forum, but I
think that could be alleviated by encouraging people to keep email
notifications up.
Cheers,
Dan
On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 5:23 AM Giacomo Travaglini via gem5-dev <
[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
I agree with Daniel and Ciro; it's difficult/annoying to navigate through
old unanswered emails and I presume nobody does that at the moment.
Most of the time if your email doesn't get a quick response as soon as it
gets posted, you can forget about getting some help as time passes; there
is a short window and you really have to hope someone flagged your email or
got some time to address your problem.
I wouldn't use JIRA to be honest for asking questions; that's beyond the
scope of JIRA and it would be chaotic to mix Bug Reports, Improvement tasks
with normal questions (like: I cannot build gem5 on my machine, or does
anyone know how this works)
Giacomo
-----Original Message-----
From: Ciro Santilli via gem5-dev <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
Sent: 10 June 2020 09:21
To: gem5 Developer List <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
Cc: Ciro Santilli <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
Subject: [gem5-dev] Re: [Suggestion] Replace gem5-users mailing-list with
Discourse
I would just use JIRA. But after that, Discourse is the second best. And
anything is better than a mailing list :-) ________________________________
From: Jason Lowe-Power via gem5-dev
<[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 11:40 PM
To: gem5 Developer List <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
Cc: gem5 users mailing list <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>;
Jason Lowe-Power <
[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
Subject: [gem5-dev] Re: [Suggestion] Replace gem5-users mailing-list with
Discourse
+1 for Discourse :).
Just to give a bit more context: I'm also trying to find a good forum for
community engagement during my online Learning gem5 class this summer. I
would like to find a platform that could be used generally for my class
this summer, future iterations of the class, and general gem5 questions, as
I believe there will be significant overlap between these groups.
Other potential options that IMO have more cons than pros when compared to
Discourse:
- Slack/Teams/etc.
- gitter.im<http://gitter.im>
- stackoverflow
That said, we're open to suggestions :). Our goal is to create the most
welcoming and inclusive environment possible. We'll go where our users are!
Cheers,
Jason
On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 2:45 PM Bobby Bruce via gem5-dev
<[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
wrote:
Dear all,
In an effort to better support the gem5 community, there has been a
suggestion that we drop the gem5-users mailing list and replace it
with Discourse, https://www.discourse.org/about, a web-based
discussion platform. I'm writing this email to propose this to the
community and ask for feedback on the matter.
We have noticed that using mailing lists as our primary communication
platform is problematic. Sending an email to a list can be daunting
experience, requiring an etiquette many are not accustom to. I'm sure
I'm not the only one who feels like they are unduly bothering a large
number of people when posting to a list (like I'm doing right now :)
). This is, of course, an unfortunate hurdle for many to get over when
they encounter problems using gem5, particularly those new to the
project. I've come to believe mailing lists are simply not a very good
technology for fostering community engagement and helping those who are
running into difficulties.
Mailing lists are also difficult to search, and lack proper formatting
mechanisms to neatly display attributes such as code and output logs.
Looking around at alternative technologies available, Discourse
appears to be a suitable replacement. For those unaware, Discourse is
(essentially) a revamp of messaging forums. It is an increasingly
popular platform for users and developers in open source projects to
communicate with one another (see LLVM's discourse as an example:
https://llvm.discourse.group ).
All-in-all, I think it's a well-designed product and contains all the
features we'd expect and need to get our work done. I can see no
immediate downsides to using it, though feedback from the community on
the matter would be greatly appreciated, particularly from those who
have used Discourse before. Dissenting opinions on the whole idea of
moving away from the gem5-user's mailing list are also welcome.
So, let me know what you think! :)
Please note, regardless as to any decision made, we will continue the
use of the gem5-dev mailing list for technical discussions for the
foreseeable future.
Kind regards,
Bobby
--
Dr. Bobby R. Bruce
Room 2235,
Kemper Hall, UC Davis
Davis,
CA, 95616
web: https://www.bobbybruce.net
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