Pardon the length. This what Gemini says: "Assembly theory is a framework that quantifies the complexity of objects based on the minimum number of steps required to build them from basic components. It assigns an assembly index to an object, which is the number of steps in the shortest possible path to create it. This theory is a way to bridge the gap between physics and biology by explaining how selection and evolution can emerge from fundamental physical laws. Assembly Theory and Its Connection to Evolution Assembly theory offers a new perspective on evolution by defining objects not just by their physical form but by their history and the memory required to produce them. The core idea is that highly complex objects, which have a high assembly index, are unlikely to be created by chance. Instead, their existence points to a process of selection and the reuse of components over time. Evolution, according to this theory, is the process of discovering and then reusing assembly pathways. Rather than being a random process, it's a directed one in which life "finds" a way to build a complex object and then replicates it, or uses it as a building block for even more complex structures. This allows for the open-ended increase in complexity that is a hallmark of life. Here's how it relates to evolution: * Quantifying Selection: The theory provides a way to mathematically quantify the amount of selection required to produce a specific set of complex objects. This is a key departure from traditional physics, which often describes the universe through timeless laws that don't account for the emergence of complex, historical systems. * The Role of Memory: In assembly theory, evolution is not just about the dynamics of particles but about the dynamics of assembly plans. The "memory" of a successful assembly pathway is what allows for the repeated construction of complex molecules and structures, leading to their abundance in the biological world. * A "Physics" of Life: By focusing on the historical and causal factors behind an object's existence, assembly theory attempts to provide a new set of physical principles that govern life. It suggests that the emergence of complex life is a natural, quantifiable outcome of the universe's tendency to produce things with a high assembly index through selection. In essence, assembly theory provides a novel way to measure and understand the link between the simple rules of physics and the complex, historical process of evolution, suggesting that evolution itself is a kind of physical process that can be quantified."
--- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Sun, Aug 10, 2025, 6:39 PM Santafe <[email protected]> wrote: > Fraught topic, Dave, and not for any good reason (as I judge such reasons; > others clearly have judged otherwise). > > I know both the principals responsible for the term and a lot of the early > work (going back to before it took on that name, and was just a pragmatic > complexity measure that Lee Cronin was using for his high-throughput lab > experiments and analysis. In those days, as a short-hand, we used to just > refer to it as “Cronin complexity”. More has been built up around that > core since then, though, and not just the branding of it as a program. > > Will be running a workshop with several lieutenants from those groups in > attendance next week, with AT as one of the focal tools or frameworks to be > used. So one can take that as a costly signal that there is work I am > willing to commit time and effort to. > > I haven’t seen what the LLMs put out if asked about it, but could perhaps > tell you whether they are giving a fairly faithful rendering of the traffic > that currently circulates surrounding the topic. I have also put in some > time trying to get people away from the sociological sparring, to just try > to get clear what is or is not in the formalism, and what has or hasn’t > been done with it. That said, I have not put in nearly the commitment of > time to know their whole corpus or even to speak at an expert level on > methods. I think I understand the methods at sort of a pseudo-code level, > though probably not all aspects even that well. > > Eric > > > > > > On Aug 11, 2025, at 9:13, Prof David West <[email protected]> wrote: > > Who knows anything about AT - Assembly Theory - and evolution. I know the > web/LLM provided stuff. Want more depth if anyone can provide such. > > On Sun, Aug 10, 2025, at 5:01 PM, [email protected] wrote: > > Thanks Stephen, > > > I hoped for some sort of answer like that. > > > If Eisenhower was the president for the Age of Collective Reasonableness, > and Reagan wa the president for the Age of Noble Selfishness, and Trump is > the president for the Age of Anarchy, what is next? How does a complexity > theorist plan his way out of this one, baby? Inquiring geezers want to > know. What do the ants have to say? I want to say that we ants should all > get together and think this through, but that is, of course, exactly what a > geezer from the ACR would say. I do despair. > > > Nick > > > *From:* Friam <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Stephen Guerin > *Sent:* Saturday, August 9, 2025 8:36 PM > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < > [email protected]> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Group Selection IS a metaphor. > > > > Nick writes: > > > I moved to Santa Fe 20 years ago to confront The Enemy – Complexity, > which made nonsense of the idea making a best guess for the future and > planning for it collectively , calmly, and rationally. > > Nick — you came to Santa Fe to “confront The Enemy – Complexity,” but I’ve > always admired how that move was also a reach to extend the individual into > the group. Your framing of evolution beyond the lone actor fits naturally > into complexity’s home territory: the study of collective dynamics. > > Complexity challenged the civic ideal you grew up with — that we could > make our best guess about the future, then plan together calmly and > rationally around stable facts — by showing: > > > - The world is nonlinear — small perturbations can cascade. > - Prediction decays fast — best guesses expire before guiding > long-horizon plans. > - Feedback loops are short — conditions shift before consensus can > form. > > From the Victorian lens of the forward-propagating individual — the gene, > the photon, the solitary actor — the unit of selection is the > forward-propagator itself, competing with only a once-in-a-lifetime > reproduction as feedback, with everything else treated as downstream > consequence. > > But complexity might instead be the handshake of duals — like the mutual > adjustment of fireflies flashing in unison or pendulums entraining to a > common rhythm — where coherence emerges from continuous exchange, not > solitary advance. This shift is much like physics’ move from solid state > (crystal order, replication) to condensed matter (emergent phenomena, > reproduction) — the very distinction Eric Smith draws between systems that > merely repeat and systems that generate novel, coherent forms. > > This spirit runs through the science: > > > - Stuart Kauffman’s autocatalytic sets — molecules persist as part of > collectively closed webs of reactions. > - Harold Morowitz & Eric Smith — life’s core metabolic cycles may > emerge as planetary-scale solutions to channel geochemical energy flows; > selection might happen at the network level, not molecule-by-molecule. > - Afred's Hübler’s ball bearings — conductive spheres collectively > grow to dissipate massive charge gradients more effectively. > - Per Bak’s self-organized criticality — critical states are > properties of the network, not any single grain or fault. > - Ilya Prigogine’s dissipative structures — ordered patterns like > Bénard cells exist only through system-wide throughput of energy/matter. > > Physics offers a parallel in Feynman–Wheeler absorber theory, where > interactions are bidirectional handshakes between advanced and retarded > waves, settling into a self-consistent exchange. Carver Mead’s Collective > Electrodynamics carries this into the macroscopic: electrons act as part of > a global configuration, not as isolated particles. > > It’s the same dynamic in my favorite ant foraging model: food-seekers > diffuse “nest” pheromone outward, nest-seekers carrying food diffuse “food” > pheromone outward; each biases its walk along the other’s field. The > shortest-time path emerges from the handshake between complementary > propagations, not from any one ant “deciding” the route. > > Seen this way, complexity might not be the death of rational planning — it > could be pointing us toward a different design target: the coherent > configuration. We're still on the lookout for our “Carnot” to formalize > these principles. > > And for me, that search has been shaped by the voices in this group — > especially yours. Your probes have been part of the collective dynamic > here, and I’ve been heavily informed by them. For that, I’m grateful. > > -Stephen > > > > > On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 4:55 PM <[email protected]> wrote: > > Ok, but I am not done with my infernal questions. The way you pose your > question, I cant help thinking that you know the answer. You and I could > recite fo one another the thousand ways in which we know that humans are > groupish. We know that people can make sacrifices for the good of groups > of all sorts, some of which are incorrigibly abstract. We know that humans > identify with the fate of other humans to the extent that they will put > aside their own good fortune for that of an iconic figure. We know the > people are capable of appalling group nastiness. There is no savagery like > the modern army, sitting around in an anonymous office bloc in New Jersey > lobbing missiles at wedding parties in Iraq. > > > So what is the question concerning human groupishness . What is it > beyond these facts that you need to know and what will change when you come > to know it. One question you might be asking yourself is “Am I justified > in keeping any money I earn beyond the median income of my fellow citizens. > The answer is almost certainly, “No”. Knowing that and knowing that I am > damned well not going to give it away, what next?” > > > One of the hardest projects to take on is the discovery of one’s own > hankerings. Glen, Jon, and DaveW have been very good at exposing mine. > Make American Rational Again. Return to the genteel rationalism of the > Deweyan 1950’s where every town had a town meeting and every discussion was > “informed” by the “facts.” (And we were all cheerful racists instead of > the guilty racists that we are now.) That I have grown up and helped to > create a world in which nobody knows anymore what a fact has been like > living my worst childhood nightmare. I was head of our planning board for > three years in the early 70’s where I learned that small towns are the > scariest, least rational places on the face of the earth. When we moved in > from California, marginal hippies, the town could not rest before it was > decided whether we were Catholics or Protestants. What???!@!! Sorry, I > am ranting. I moved to Santa Fe 20 years ago to confront The Enemy – > Complexity, which made nonsense of the idea making a best guess for the > future and planning for it collectively , calmly, and rationally. The idea > that people should build businesses models on destabilizing the present and > then swooping in and pillaging until one has established an irrevocable > monopoly on the future just seems WRONG to me. I loved the idea of > American exceptionalism. But lo and behold, we were exceptional in only > one respect. WE had discovered destabilization as a business model. Drop > by, plant a lethal virus, wait a few years and then return (with your > slaves) to a “virgin” land populated only by a few desperate savages. Let > the rape of the virgin begin. Calm down, Nick. > > > These are my commitments, and I cannot escape them. What are yours? > > > Nick > *From:* Friam <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Pieter Steenekamp > *Sent:* Friday, August 8, 2025 4:21 PM > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < > [email protected]> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Group Selection IS a metaphor. > > > > Nick, > > Too good to miss — I’m in. Lead me into the jungle of group selection, > especially the human variety. > > What I’m after: a clear, simple (but not dumbed-down) take on what group > selection in humans is, and why it might explain our behaviour better than > individual selection alone. > > Happy to start at the very beginning — dawn of the argument, cave > paintings, whatever you think works. > > And yes, send me that Famous Great Amateur reading list. I promise to read > it with respect… and just enough suspicion to keep it fun. > > > On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 at 17:05, Nicholas Thompson <[email protected]> > wrote: > > Hi, Pieter, > > > Let me be a George to you as you explore this topic. I will try to > respond off hand, quickly, and unself-consciously as you think along. I > think this whole topic is fascinating both substantively, and > historically. The literature seems to track (or lead?) the Zeitgeist so > precisely from post war peace-nikery (Wynne-Edwards), to the > revanchist academic Reaganism (Williams-Dawkins), to chaos (evodevo). It's > really hard to take the whole argument seriously once one begins to > understand how complex and multi layered are the mechanisms by which > parents do and dont resemble their children. One of the tools to thinking > straight is to own up to one's hankerings before one dives into the > literature. What are you hoping to find? Post war peace-nikery was > covertly deistic, hoping to find that there was some sort of over > arching regulatory agency that would keep the species and the planet safe. > Academic Reaganism said good luck with that! Success is virtue. And then > evodevo, the bull in the china shop of that whole argument. I recommend > reading the biologist, Sean B. Carroll, (not the physicist), Endless forms > most beautiful, and The making of the fittest. It's really hard to take > the whole argument seriously once one begins to understand how complex and > multi layered are the mechanisms by which parents do and dont resemble > their children. That there is any resemblance at all begins to seem like > some sort of miracle. Or perhaps just momentum. One hankering that > misleads us is naturalism, the idea that we can find some sort of MORAL > guidance in the way things are. Is the opposite hankering, > existentialism? The belief that what makes humans special is their power > to CHOOSE. You should remember that I am not a philosopher and am, in > fact, an amateur in all things. > > > "Any time you want to explore this issue, I am here ready to help. Would > you like suggestions of articles to read by that Famous Amateur, Nick > Thompson? " > > > signed, > > > ChatNST > > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 5:19 AM Pieter Steenekamp < > [email protected]> wrote: > > Thanks, Nick. Just like you struggled to get your head around entropy, I’m > battling to wrap my mind around how the basic but very powerful mechanism > of evolution works in human groups. I can easily understand individual > human selection, or even group selection in swarming insects where only the > queen has babies. > > I think I’ll take a page from your book and work with George to help guide > me through this learning journey. Every now and then, I might check in with > you and others here for a chat or to ask a question. > > The only catch is that I’ve just started a really exciting AI project, so > I might not have much time for my group-level evolution journey — but I’ll > try to keep it going. > > > On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 at 03:40, <[email protected]> wrote: > > Thanks Pieter, > > > Sorry I have taken so long to get back to you. If FRIAM ever started a > journal, it should be called “the emperors new clothes”. We are not > committed to anything if not to the validity of an “amateur’s” > perspective. As people will be quick to tell you, mine has always been of > that sort. > > > If I read you carefully, the position you take is that laid out in Dawkins > The Extended Phenotype – that the genes are the basic unit of selection. > But as Dave Wilson has been pointing out for years, Who made that > decision? For one thing, as epigenic studies have made clear, when one > looks in detail, it is really hard to find a thing that is exactly the > gene. For another, that decision runs the risk of confusing the the thing > that is selected with the forces that are selecting it. Whatever level you > care to calculate the impact of selection, it is differential group success > that is driving selection or it is not group selection. And if it is > differential group success that is driving selection, then it is group > selection. I think you might quite enjoy The Extended Phenotype. For a > whild ride, have a look at Elliott Sober and D. S. Wilson’s Reintroducing > Group Selection to the human behavioral sciences. There is a wonderful > metaphor in there about two riders riding three horses. It was the article > that broke the tide for me. I had been totally up Dawkins ass for the > preceding 20 years. > > > Here is the citation, courtesy og George Patrick Tremblay IV > > > Wilson, D. S., & Sober, E. (1994). *Reintroducing group selection to the > human behavioral sciences*. *Behavioral and Brain Sciences, 17*(4), > 585–608. https://doi.org/10.1017/S0140525X00036104 > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fdoi.org%2f10.1017%2fS0140525X00036104&c=E,1,qc4BSmVWnjaBnu_eMFu91fsJnRyXKDVZkiBj_K-mc-2vcO5B88AU5GmJHjdOc0yaiFwONd2bxnkrn1e4A8VBme6OnkVsQ2sOt06kD_fsE5jmPQU,&typo=1> > en.wikipedia.org+15philpapers.org+15 > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fphilpapers.org%2frec%2fWILRGS%3futm_source%3dchatgpt.com&c=E,1,8uh8-gEcjdXw0q5WQ48I45eHCk1eucwp2cJNV7xDWHUKTChTjIo7z3uVpsXtNt2tTFlcQkCogaaj63eznJqvJiWrqkvhkYrKg0PyO663eaIy&typo=1> > …. > > > Nick > > > *From:* Friam <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Pieter Steenekamp > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 6, 2025 12:55 AM > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < > [email protected]> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Group Selection IS a metaphor. > > > > Nick, I'm genuinely impressed. Honestly, I feel a bit out of my depth > trying to respond meaningfully on this topic. > > So please take my reply in the same spirit I’d expect a response from my > 10-year-old grandchild when debating computer programming with me. The gap > between your understanding of evolution and mine feels about that wide. > > That said, I’d still like to offer a response to your group selection > argument—fully aware that it may come across as amateurish, and I'm okay > with that. > > Here's the question I’m grappling with: > > Is the following valid? > Genes as the Unit of Selection: > Modern evolutionary theory generally views genes as the primary unit of > selection. Natural selection acts on individuals, and the success of an > individual is ultimately determined by the genes they carry. > Group Selection as a Modifier: > Group selection can be seen as a process that influences the expression of > genes. For example, if a group-level trait (like cooperative behavior) is > advantageous, then genes that promote that behavior will be favored, even > if those genes also have individual-level costs. > > > On Wed, 6 Aug 2025 at 00:12, Prof David West <[email protected]> wrote: > > Nick, > > > I wish to embody the fear of being dragged away from what you think you > are supposed to be doing, to be engaged in the topic you raise in your > paper. > > > I have read the paper before and, as then, I find it meritorious, well > written, and reasonable in argument. I am, basically, convinced. > > > However; two points: > > > First, your use of the concept, "metaphor," is the way that I use the > term, in a manner that glen pointed out is inconsistent with the literal > definition of the term. I speak of metaphor when there is some thing of > which I think I know something and I have a suspicion that some other thing > might be of the same ilk. I use what I think I know to craft a 'model', one > that suggests particular points and particular relations that, if my > suspicion is correct, will have direct analogs in the unknown thing. I > check them out individually and in combinations and, if substantiated, > confirm my suspicion. If unconfirmed, the metaphor is refuted. > > > This seems to me to be what you are doing in the paper, albeit it more > abstractly and academically. Please correct me if wrong. > > > Second, and here is the real time sink, would it be possible to make your > ideas concrete, real groups with actual history and demonstrated > differential "success." If you were amenable to such a conversation, I > would propose the Mormons as a test case. > > > One of 20 or so "religions"/"societies" to emerge from the "Burnt Over > District" of western New York. The only one still extant. > > > Disproportionately successful, (in material and social terms), to their > neighbors. Smith was living in a two-story New England style home while > down the road, Abe Lincoln, was living in a log cabin with mud floor. > > > A schism immediately after Smith's death, with the Reformed LDS barely > evident while the main group flourished. (Last time I checked, Mormonism > and Sokka Gokai, in Japan, were the two fastest growing religions.) > > > In Utah there was a concerted effort to spawn multiple small groups by > sending out colonies. Because each group was originally "seeded" with four > or five families, you get a strong genetic/heritance component as well as > "traits." (It is still possible to identify what part of Utah someone is > from (especially females) by their physical appearance.) > > > Some interesting "adaptations" at the trait level, e.g., when Smith was > alive blacks were included in the community and held the > priesthood—something that Missourians, at the time, could not abide. > Brigham Young 'suspended' (restored in 1978 with the admission that the > suspension was not for theological, but merely political reasons) black > priesthood membership and gave up polygamy (de jure only) to appease the > Federal Government and avoid a second martyrdom. > > > davew > > > > > On Tue, Aug 5, 2025, at 1:10 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote: > > Dear Colleagues in FRIAM, > > Sometimes, if I am going to get anything done, I just have to ignore > Friam, and keep my head down, and work at the thing I am working at. It > always seems, on that occasion, that you-guys dangle in front of me some > enticing topic so I must scream and put my fingers in my ears to keep focus > on my work. So it was that when I decided I must fish or cut bait on > entropy or it would take me to my grave, that almost immediately you-guys > started not one but two conversations close to my heart: on the centrality > of metaphor to science and on the group selection controversy. > > A couple of decades ago I brought those two interests together in a paper > called “Shifting the Natural Selection Metaphor to the Group Level. There > are two things about this paper that make it salient for me. The first is > that I think it is the best paper I ever wrote. The second is that for > each of the two people whom I most hoped to reach when I wrote it, D. S. > Wilson and Elliott Sober, it is a piece of crap. In it, I try to show > that the problem with metaphors is not with their use in scientific > thinking: on the contrary, it is with their ill-disciplined use. Metaphors > need to be worked in a systematic way, not simply flung out in a gust of > poetic exuberance. This lesson I try to teach by working the natural > selection metaphor in a systematic way to show that if it had been treated > seriously in the first place, the whole dispute about group selection might > have been avoided. Thus the paper is not only arrogant, but > meta-arrogant. > > Nothing is more pitiable than the retired academic who would do anything > to have anybody read his moribund essays. But, alas, I simply am such a > person. So, I am attaching a copy of the paper in the hope that it will > have some value to you within the context of your two discussions. > > Mumble, > > Nick > > > > > -- > Nicholas S. 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