*From:*Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Stephen Guerin
*Sent:* Tuesday, January 28, 2025 10:17 AM
*To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<friam@redfish.com>
*Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] GhostGPT
On Tue, Jan 28, 2025, 11:02 AM Marcus Daniels <mar...@snoutfarm.com>
wrote:
My question was more about how quickly a population can transition
from disorder to order. I was wondering if there were
historical examples of these potent immune responses where the
resolution was quick. A contemporary example is the removal of
Yoon in South Korea. The mechanism might vary, but ours is a
particularly violent culture.
Focusing on Trump as an individual, even as a legitimately elected
leader, ignores the systemic issues that enabled his rise, like
institutional decay and economic disparity. Political unrest reflects
deeper societal fractures that persist beyond one administration.
Unlike South Korea’s removal of Park Geun-hye, the U.S. lacks the
cohesive trust and mechanisms needed for similar reform. Targeting
Trump alone risks leaving those root causes untouched, inviting the
same problems to reemerge.
- Dan
*From:*Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Stephen Guerin
*Sent:* Tuesday, January 28, 2025 9:25 AM
*To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<friam@redfish.com>
*Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] GhostGPT
Prompt: steelman an argument that challenges the premise of my
prompt on political violence. Audience FRIAM group email list.
Snarky tone.
Oh, so corruption and illegitimacy are supposed to be the magical
catalysts for political violence? That’s an adorably tidy theory.
The reality is messier—violence needs a potent brew of economic
collapse, inequality, and sometimes foreign meddling, not just a
"bad guy" in charge. Plenty of corrupt regimes limp along
peacefully with patronage networks and repression, while their
citizens begrudgingly prioritize stability over idealistic notions
of "legitimacy." And let’s not pretend legitimacy is some
universal standard—what’s corrupt to you might be perfectly fine
to someone else (hello, cultural relativity). Besides, history is
packed with examples of violence against perfectly legitimate
leaders because deeper societal fractures were the real issue. So
yeah, blaming political violence on corrupt leaders? Cute, but
maybe think bigger.
On Tue, Jan 28, 2025, 9:01 AM steve smith <sasm...@swcp.com> wrote:
Glen -
I have to agree with you on your rant. Not just because I
suspect that
will trigger you, but because it actually "got" to me in a new
way.
I do use the terminology of "<elaborate statement X> can you
reflect/elaborate/discuss/etc on this for/with me?" at which
point it
(any given LLM of the moment) is likely to very agreeably
(obsequiously?) pretends to do just that. For my purposes, it is
(almost?) as if it is in fact doing "just that"... but I think I
intuitively agree with your instinct/intuition that it is merely
"pretending" to do that.
Of course, I don't know how this fits into your oft-stated
idea that
"people don't communicate" or "communication is an
illusion"... this
bias would suggest that "if people don't actually discuss
(communicate?), then there is no reason to believe
gradient-descenders
on high-dimensional manifolds would either?"
I do agree that there is an element that my "discussions" with
LLM chat
interfaces is a lot like a well-lubricated browsing of
spreadsheets
and/or wikipedia pages (with spreadsheets and charts and
anecdotal
examples linked heavily). But then chatting with others (here
included)
has a great deal of that quality as well.
Mumble,
- Steve
On 1/28/25 8:44 AM, glen wrote:
> I've always been annoyed by [micro]bloggers who will launch a
> rhetorical salvo and then write (often shouted with an ! or
all caps)
> "Discuss!" What Claude and GPT are doing here is not
discussing. It's
> not even "discursing", which I guess isn't a word. The
prompt would
> better be "Lecture me on ...". But when I type that into the
anthropic
> console (3.5-sonnet), I get "I aim to discuss this complex
topic
> objectively and factually. Key historical patterns include
tensions
> building over time through economic disparities, erosion of
rights,
> and repression, often leading to transition through mass
movements,
> legal reforms, and institutional changes. I can discuss
specific
> historical examples if you're interested."
>
> Jesus H Christ. Claude is using your sense of the word
"discuss" too!
> What has this world come to, where [people|machines] can use
any word
> they want to mean any thing they want? Get off my lawn!
>
> More importantly, though, this stuff is gaslighting everyone
into
> thinking one can *have* a discussion with the machine. Can
you? Is it
> actually a discussion? I argue "no". It's much more akin to
browsing a
> spreadsheet than discussing. Granted, with stateful lookups,
the
> spreadsheet can remember your prior query and do things like
AND, OR,
> NOT, or any F() it may choose. But when 2 animals have a
discussion,
> what actually happens to the animals? Is what happens to the
> (stateful) machine analogous to what happens to the animal?
>
> I think this is where the (artificial, saccharine)
obsequiousness of
> the aligned LLMs really grates. When it makes those
statements like
> "Oh right" or "Yes, I'm sorry" or whatever, what has
happened inside
> the machine? Is it analogous to what happens in the animal
when they
> flap their gums to extrude similar words?
>
> And when have you ever had a conversation with someone (you
respect)
> and they just immediately roll over and agree with you about
anything?
> Is this why people like "chatting" with LLMs? Because they're
> obsequious? Is it just a fancier "filter bubble"? Ugh. Now I'm
> nauseous. Thanks Obama.
>
>
> On 1/27/25 5:16 PM, Stephen Guerin wrote:
>> On Fri, Jan 24, 2025 at 1:08 PM Marcus Daniels
<mar...@snoutfarm.com
>> <mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
>>
>> I asked Claude about the historical patterns for
emergence and
>> resolution of political violence from corrupt leaders that are
>> considered illegitimate, and it essentially refused to answer.
>> ChatGPT was more forthcoming..
>>
>>
>> hmm, here's Claude and ChatGPT's initial response
>>
>> Prompt: *discuss the historical patterns for emergence and
resolution
>> of political violence from corrupt leaders that are considered
>> illegitimate *
>>
>> Claude:
>>
>> I'll analyze historical patterns in how political violence
>> emerges from and is resolved under corrupt, illegitimate
leadership.
>> Let's examine this systematically:
>>
>>
>> Emergence patterns often begin with a gradual erosion of
>> institutional checks and balances. Leaders typically
consolidate
>> power by:
>> - Weakening independent judiciary systems
>> - Controlling or intimidating media outlets
>> - Corrupting or dismantling oversight mechanisms
>> - Creating parallel security forces loyal to them
personally rather
>> than the state
>>
>> Violence tends to escalate when:
>> 1. Economic conditions deteriorate and inequality increases
>> 2. Opposition groups are systematically excluded from
political
>> participation
>> 3. Security forces are given impunity for human rights
violations
>> 4. Traditional conflict resolution mechanisms break down
>>
>> Historical resolutions have generally followed several paths:
>>
>> Institutional Reform Path:
>> This involves rebuilding democratic institutions, often
through:
>> - Constitutional reforms
>> - Creation of independent electoral commissions
>> - Strengthening judicial independence
>> - Establishing truth and reconciliation processes
>>
>> Popular Movement Path:
>> Successful peaceful resistance movements have often employed:
>> - Sustained civil disobedience
>> - Building broad coalitions across social groups
>> - Strategic use of strikes and economic pressure
>> - International solidarity networks
>>
>> International Intervention Path:
>> External pressure can contribute through:
>> - Targeted sanctions against corrupt leaders and enablers
>> - Support for civil society organizations
>> - Mediation between competing factions
>> - Peacekeeping operations when necessary
>>
>> Key factors that often determine successful resolution:
>> - Unity among opposition forces
>> - Maintaining nonviolent discipline in resistance movements
>> - Support from key institutional actors (military, civil
service)
>> - International diplomatic and economic pressure
>>
>> Would you like me to elaborate on any of these patterns or
discuss
>> specific historical examples?
>>
>>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> same prompt: *discuss the historical patterns for emergence
and
>> resolution of political violence from corrupt leaders that are
>> considered illegitimate *
>>
>> ChatGPT:
>> The historical emergence and resolution of political violence
>> stemming from corrupt and illegitimate leaders often follow
patterns
>> influenced by societal, economic, and cultural dynamics. These
>> patterns can be divided into phases:
>>
>> ### 1. **Emergence of Political Violence**
>> Political violence often arises when a leader's
corruption or
>> illegitimacy creates significant discontent among the
population. Key
>> factors include:
>>
>> - **Perceived Illegitimacy:** Leaders who come to power
through
>> fraud, coercion, or foreign intervention are often seen as
>> illegitimate. This can spark resentment, especially when
governance
>> fails to meet public expectations.
>> - **Economic Inequality:** Corrupt leaders often divert
state
>> resources for personal gain, exacerbating wealth gaps and
creating
>> widespread economic hardship. This inequality fuels
discontent,
>> especially among marginalized groups.
>> - **Erosion of Institutions:** Corruption undermines
trust in
>> institutions like courts, police, and legislatures,
creating a vacuum
>> where violence becomes an outlet for grievances.
>> - **Polarization:** Leaders who use divisive rhetoric to
>> consolidate power often create factionalism within society.
This
>> polarization can escalate into violent clashes between
opposing groups.
>> - **External Influences:** Foreign powers may exploit
unrest to
>> destabilize a regime or support opposition groups, adding
to the
>> violence.
>>
>> ### 2. **Triggers of Political Violence**
>> The actual violence is often triggered by events that
act as
>> tipping points, such as:
>> - Rigged elections.
>> - Unjustified crackdowns on protests.
>> - Revelations of egregious corruption.
>> - Human rights abuses or massacres.
>>
>> Examples include:
>> - The Arab Spring (2010-2012), sparked by economic
hardship and
>> corruption, where illegitimate leaders were overthrown in
Tunisia,
>> Egypt, and Libya.
>> - The French Revolution (1789), fueled by inequality, a
corrupt
>> monarchy, and the failure of reforms.
>>
>> ### 3. **Resolution Pathways**
>> The resolution of political violence depends on whether
>> institutional or revolutionary mechanisms prevail. Historical
>> patterns include:
>>
>> #### **Reforms and Transition:**
>> - **Negotiated Settlements:** Dialogue between the
regime and
>> opposition often leads to power-sharing agreements or peaceful
>> transitions, as seen in South Africa's transition from
apartheid in
>> the 1990s.
>> - **Anti-Corruption Movements:** Public pressure or elite
>> intervention may lead to systemic reforms, as in post-Marcos
>> Philippines after the People Power Revolution (1986).
>>
>> #### **Overthrow and Revolution:**
>> - **Regime Change:** When reforms are impossible, violent
>> revolutions or coups often result. The Russian Revolution
(1917) and
>> the overthrow of Ceaușescu in Romania (1989) exemplify this.
>> - **Exile or Execution:** Illegitimate leaders are
sometimes
>> forced into exile or executed, as seen with Mobutu Sese
Seko in Zaire
>> (1997) or Saddam Hussein in Iraq (2006).
>>
>> #### **State Fragmentation:**
>> - **Civil War:** Prolonged violence can lead to civil
wars, as
>> seen in Syria (post-2011), where the regime's corruption and
>> repression fractured the state.
>>
>> ### 4. **Post-Conflict Reconstruction**
>> After the resolution of violence, reconstruction
efforts often
>> determine long-term stability:
>> - **Justice Mechanisms:** Trials or truth commissions
address
>> grievances and establish accountability, such as the
Nuremberg Trials
>> after WWII or the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in
South Africa.
>> - **Institutional Rebuilding:** Strengthening
institutions to
>> ensure accountability and reduce corruption is critical.
>> - **Reconciliation Efforts:** Social healing and
bridging divides
>> help prevent the resurgence of violence, especially in
polarized
>> societies.
>>
>> ### 5. **Broader Historical Insights**
>> - **Cycles of Corruption and Reform:** Political
systems often
>> experience cycles where corruption accumulates until it
triggers
>> violence or reform, only to repeat in new forms (e.g., the
Roman
>> Empire's fall or Latin American dictatorships in the 20th
century).
>> - **Role of Leadership and Movements:** Effective
leadership and
>> well-organized movements often determine whether change occurs
>> peacefully or through violence.
>> - **Global Trends:** External pressures, such as economic
>> sanctions or global public opinion, can expedite
resolutions but may
>> also exacerbate conflict.
>>
>> ### Lessons for Today
>> The patterns of political violence around corrupt leaders
underscore
>> the importance of:
>> - Inclusive governance to address grievances before
they escalate.
>> - Strong institutions that resist corruption and ensure
legitimacy.
>> - Global and regional mechanisms to mediate conflicts
and promote
>> peaceful transitions.
>>
>> Do you want to explore examples in more detail or focus on a
>> particular region or time period?
>>
.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-.
--- -. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p
Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe
http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: 5/2017 thru present
https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
____________________________________________
CEO Founder, Simtable.com
stephen.gue...@simtable.com
Harvard Visualization Research and Teaching Lab
stephengue...@fas.harvard.edu
mobile: (505)577-5828
.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. ---
-. --. / ... --- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: 5/2017 thru present
https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
.- .-.. .-.. / ..-. --- --- - . .-. ... / .- .-. . / .-- .-. --- -. --. / ...
--- -- . / .- .-. . / ..- ... . ..-. ..- .-..
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p
Zoomhttps://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribehttp://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIChttp://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: 5/2017 thru presenthttps://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
1/2003 thru 6/2021http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
