Good Lord. Not fully convincing. Not nearly, I do like the way in which authority and the adoption of absurd beliefs work together. And why trying to change somebody' allegiance to a charismer might be strengthened by going after shared absurd beliefs.Nick
Every Q-Anon adjacent person I know loves to be challenged, not so they can effectively defend any of their thoughts, ideas, beliefs, opinions, but to help them temper them to a softer resilient blade with a brittle but sharp fine edge to cut through everyone else's reality, if only in their own minds.
I prefer to forge/temper my own armor soft but hefty enough that their sharpened blades *stick* rather than chip, temporarily disarming or distracting them between their attempted slashes. My nature prefers to arm itself with a spiked mace but my other nature prefers that it hang on my belt for show and never get weilded (flailed?).
May the medieval metaphors be with you, - Steve
On Sun, Oct 20, 2024 at 5:32 AM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net> wrote: I agree that the hype in conservative news sources about great CEOs is an example of the Great Man theory. The hype about AI godfathers is an example too. Nevertheless I still believe that authoritarian organization is the rule in social systems. In almost all companies and corporations the CEO has the last word, in armies the general at the top, in families traditionally the father. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_man_theory In hierarchies there are two ends of a spectrum: at the one end we have an authoritarian system and a top-down hierarchy where people at the bottom are doing what the leader at the top wants. At the other end we have a democratic system and a bottom-up hierarchy where elected people at the top are doing what the people at the bottom want. In between are authoritarian systems that pretend to democratic, and democratic system that have authoritarian tendencies. An example of the spectrum would be a Navy vessel vs a pirate ship in the 18th century. Mutiny is one form of transition between the two types. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governance_in_18th-century_piracy Another example is the Catholic church vs protestantism. In the Catholic church officials are appointed from the top, in protestant culture they are elected. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism The question why people are shifting from one form of organization to another is intriguing. I am not sure if we have clear answers to this interesting question. Nick argued that "groups capable of shifting to an authoritarian organization in response to a perceived existential threat survived in greater numbers than those that didn't" but this argument alone is not fully convincing, or is it? -J. -------- Original message -------- From: glen <geprope...@gmail.com> Date: 10/18/24 9:47 PM (GMT+01:00) To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On Evolutionary Atavism I can't help but feel that the sentiment that authoritarian organization is the rule is an example of (or sibling to) the Great Man theory. Ultimately, it's something akin to a psychological investment in teleology - which I'm using to mean when the appearance of purposeful behavior is often treated as an indicator that processes do have purpose (as opposed to teleonomy - where processes merely seem to have purpose, behave as if they have purpose, or perhaps purpose is emergent). But it's not merely the attribution of purpose, but also the attribution of unity or fusion into a bounded whole. I'd challenge anyone to present an organized system that is *actually* unified in this way. Even political systems we name and accept as authoritarian, are not completely fused, atomic, centralized. The extent to which the nominal leader is actually the leader is a graded extent, never perfect. Each particular authoritarian system will be more or less authoritarian than another. And, worse, each particular system will be more authoritarian in some dimensions and less in others. So if I read this generously, what I hear is that we're very used to ... comfortable with ... the attribution of leader-controlled organization, as in corporations with chief executives, etc. And we're less used to ... facile with ... comfortable with ... distributed organization and quantifying the extent to which organization is centralized or distributed. If I read it less generously, it sounds like reification - pretending like some illusory property is actual. On 10/17/24 10:21, Jochen Fromm wrote: > Interesting thoughts. The use of "atavism" in the context of social systems is interesting, but it is not new. Joseph Schumpeter has used the term atavism to explain the outbreak of World War I > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atavism > > > I believe authoritarian organization is not the exception, it is the rule. A pecking order or "dominance hierarchy" is the most common order in social groups and almost all organizations, corporations and companies. Even among chickens in farms or apes in zoos. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominance_hierarchy > > > The opposite of authoritarian organization is an egalitarian society where everybody is equal. In his book "Warlike and Peaceful Societies", Agner Fogar agues that people tend to prefer one of these two types depending on the situation. His regality theory says "people will show a psychological preference for a strong leader and strict discipline if they live in a society full of conflict and danger, while people in a peaceful and safe environment will prefer an egalitarian and tolerant culture" > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regality_theory > > > -J. > > > > Inters-------- Original message -------- > From: thompnicks...@gmail.com > Date: 10/17/24 12:08 AM (GMT+01:00) > To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <friam@redfish.com> > Subject: [FRIAM] On Evolutionary Atavism > > On Evolutionary Atavism > > My so-called mind is still churning from our conversation about evolutionary atavism, the idea that current behavioral systems may be ill-suited to contemporary circumstances. As an evolutionary psychologist I should be for it; however, as a survivor of the instinct wars of the 1950’s, I should be against it. Where am I? > > The problem with evolutionary atavism arises when people start attributing any necessity to it. Natural selection would not be possible if organisms did not offer up structures and behaviors that are maladapted. Evolution could not have occurred if organisms did not respond to these maladaptations with adaptive changes. Evolution is a dynamic between change and stability and the interesting question is why some things change while others don’t, and why some changes occur more rapidly than others. Asserting that some things are the same as they were a million years ago because they didn’t happen to change is just silly. > > Still, evolutionary atavism does play a role in my thinking. Let’s work an example together and see what that role is and whether it is justified. I listened with guilty pleasure to Obama’s address ridiculing MAGA thinking. My pleasure was guilty because I thought his speech would make Trump more likely to win the election. This conclusion arose from an evolutionary hypothesis about the origins of charisma. The logic, such as it is, goes like this. > > 1. *The modern human species arose 160kyrs ago from a very small number of small groups. *That the human species passed through a severe bottleneck at it inception is probably true; that it was composed of small group at that time is a plausible surmise.** > 2. *Those groups were engaged in intense competition at the bottleneck. *This statement is reasonable but not supported by any data I can think of. ** > 3. *Therefore, they survived or failed as groups. *Again, merely plausible.** > 4. *Those /groups/ survived that were capable of rapid concerted action. *This is based on the idea that in emergencies it is most important for every to do some thing, rather than for them to wait and work out the best thing to do.**Barely plausible. Not even clear how one would go about researching it. ** > 5. *Groups capable of shifting to an authoritarian organization in response to a perceived existential threat survived in greater numbers than those that didn’t.* > 6. *Humans, therefore, are inclined to put their faith in a single person when they perceive an existential threat. *Let’s call this the “Charismer Response”** > 7. *The person most likely to be selected for this role is apparently single-minded and decisive. *This gives us the characteristics of a *Charismer*, ** > 8. *Charismees relinquish their capacity for independent rational thought in favor of the Charismer’s decision-making. * > 9. *Charismees receive benefits from the group in proportion to their demonstrations of surrender of rationality.* > 10. *Charismees demostrate their surrender by the repetition of o or more flagrantly irrational beliefs. (virgi birth, stole election , etc.)* > 11. *Challenges to these beliefs only increase charismees allegiance to the group* > 12. *Therefore, Obama should have kept his smarty-pants mouth shut. * > > You all ca*n* evaluate the heuristic, rationality, a*n*d probability of this argument. I am going to stop *n*ow because my keyboard has stopped reliably producing “*n’s” * ad is drivig me uts. At best, I think evolutionary atavism is a source of plausible hypotheses about why organisms are not adapted to their current circumstances. See some of you tomorrow. > > Sicerely, >-- ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . 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