I must respectively disagree. Our ancestors—before they had 'words' communicated multiple worlds, of "reality" like last weeks hunt and "alt-reality" gods and demons and spirits, o my! (allusion to wizard of Oz). All with song and cave art, no words. I am pretty certain they were conscious and self aware.
davew On Mon, Jul 8, 2024, at 3:48 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote: > IMHO it is not one language which is necessary, but more than one. Languages > can be used to create worlds, to move around it them, and to share these > wolds with others. Tolkien and J.K. Rowling have created whole universes. The > interesting things happen if worlds collide, if they merge and melt, or if > they drift apart. > > > Cervantes in Spain, Goethe in Germany and Dante in Italy helped to create new > languages - Spanish, German and Italian, respectively. They also examined in > their most famous books what happens if worlds collide. > > > Cervantes describes in "Don Quixote" > > what happens when imaginary and real worlds collide and are so out of sync > that the actors are getting lost. > > > Goethe decribes in his "Faust" what happens when collective and individual > worlds collide, i.e. when egoistic individuals exploit the world selfishly > for their own benefit (in his first book "The sorrows of young Werther" > Goethe focused like Fontane and Freud on the opposite). > > > Dante describes in his "Divine Comedy" > > what happens when worlds diverge and people are excluded and expelled from > the world. > > > Language is necessary for self awareness because it provides the building > blocks for a new world which is connected but also independent from the old > one. This allows new dimensions of interactions. The connections between > worlds matter. A label is a simple connection between a word in one world and > an class of objects in another. A metaphor is a more complex connection > between an abstract idea and a composition of objects, etc. > > > -J. > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> > Date: 7/7/24 5:13 PM (GMT+01:00) > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We > Thought > > I think of large language models as the most embodied things on the planet, > but let that go for a moment. Back to baby steps. > > Can you lay out for me why you believe that language is essential to > self-awareness. Does that believe arise from ideology, authority, or some > set of facts I need to take account of. To be honest here, I should say > where I am coming from. A lot of my so-called career was spent railing > against circular reasoning in evolutionary theory and psychology. So, if > language is essential to self-awareness, and animals do not have language, > then it indeed follows that animals do not have self-awareness. But what if > our method for detecting self awareness requires language? Now we are in a > loop. Are we in such a loop, or are there facts of some matter, independent > of language, convince you that animals are not self-aware. Is self awareness > extricable from language? > > It is an old old trope that animals are automata but that humans have soul. > Descartes swore by it. Is "language" the new soul? > > Nick > > > > On Sun, Jul 7, 2024 at 7:29 AM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net> wrote: >> I would say cats, dogs and horses don't have meta-awareness because they >> lack language. They live in the present moment, in the here and now. Without >> language they do not have the capability to reflect on their past or to >> think about their future. They can not formulate stories of themselves which >> could help to form a sense of identity. Language is the mirror in which we >> perceive ourselves during "this is me" moments. Animals lack this mirror >> completely. One dimensional scents trails do not count as language. >> >> Large languages models lack consciousness because they do not have a body >> which is embedded as a actor in an environment. These two things are >> necessary: the physical world of bodies, and the mental world of language. >> When both collide in the same spot we can get consciousness. >> >> -J. >> >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> >> Date: 7/6/24 5:05 AM (GMT+01:00) >> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We >> Thought >> >> Well, that's because Socrates claimed not to know what he thought, and since >> I genuinely don[t know what I think until I work it out, the conversation >> has the same quality. I apologize for that. my students found it truly >> distressing. >> >> So, if you will indulge me, why don't you think your cat has >> meta=awareness? Authority, ideology, or is there some experience you have >> had that leads you to think that. It would be kind of odd if it she didn't >> because animals have all sorts of ways of distinguishing self from other. >> They have ways of knowinng that "I did that". (e.g., scent marking?) >> >> >> On Fri, Jul 5, 2024 at 3:19 PM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net> wrote: >>> Well yes, if meta-awareness is defined as acting in response to one's own >>> awareness then I would say animals like a cat don't have it but humans >>> have. As an example I could say this almost feels like I am a participant >>> in a dialogue from Plato... >>> >>> I would be surprised if it can be described in simple terms. If the essence >>> of consciousness is subjective experience then it is indeed hard to >>> describe by a theory although there are many attempts. Persons who perceive >>> things differently are wired differently. And what is more subjective than >>> the perception of oneself? >>> >>> https://informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/what-is-consciousness/ >>> >>> >>> >>> If we can describe it mathematically then probably as a way an information >>> feels if it is processed in complex ways, ad infinitum like the orbits of a >>> strange attractor. >>> >>> https://chaoticatmospheres.com/mathrules-strange-attractors >>> >>> >>> >>> -J. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -------- Original message -------- >>> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> >>> Date: 7/5/24 6:56 PM (GMT+01:00) >>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> >>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We >>> Thought >>> >>> , >>> >>> Great! Baby steps. "If we aren't moving slowly, we aren't moving." So, >>> can I define some new terms, tentatively, *per explorandum* ? Let's call >>> acting-in-respect-to-the-world, "awareness". Allowing this definition, we >>> certainly seem to agree that the cat is aware. Lets define meta-awareness >>> as acting i respect to one's own awareness. Now, am I correct in assuming >>> that you identify meta-awareness with consciousness and that you think that >>> the cat is not meta-aware and that I probably am? And further that you >>> think that meta-awareness requires consciousness? >>> >>> Nick >>> >>> On Fri, Jul 5, 2024 at 12:17 PM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net> wrote: >>>> I would say a cat is conscious in the sense that it is aware of its >>>> immediate environment. Cats are nocturnal animals who hunt at night and >>>> mostly sleep during the day. Consciousness in the sense of being aware of >>>> oneself as an actor in an environment requires understanding of language >>>> which only humans have ( and LLMs now ) >>>> https://www.quantamagazine.org/insects-and-other-animals-have-consciousness-experts-declare-20240419/ >>>> >>>> -J. >>>> >>>> >>>> -------- Original message -------- >>>> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> >>>> Date: 7/5/24 5:02 AM (GMT+01:00) >>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> >>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We >>>> Thought >>>> >>>> Jochen, >>>> >>>> *I think the first step in any conversation is to decide whether your cat >>>> is conscious. If so, why do you think so; if not, likewise. I had a >>>> facinnationg conversation with GBT about whether he was conscious and he >>>> denied it "hotly", which, of course, met one of his criteria for >>>> consciousness. * >>>> ** >>>> *So. Is your cat connscious?* >>>> ** >>>> *Nick* >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 7:26 PM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net> wrote: >>>>> I don't get Philip Goff: first we send our children 20 years to school, >>>>> from Kindergarten to college and university, to teach them all kinds of >>>>> languages, and then we wonder how they can be conscious. It will be the >>>>> same for AI: first we spend millions and millions to train them all >>>>> available knowledge, and then we wonder how they can develop >>>>> understanding of language and consciousness... >>>>> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-mystery-of-consciousness-is-deeper-than-we-thought/ >>>>> >>>>> -J. >>>>> >>>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >
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