And what would we make of the oral vs written traditions? Are geometers more or less conscious than algebraists? >8^D
On July 7, 2024 5:58:12 PM PDT, Prof David West <profw...@fastmail.fm> wrote: >why do you assume cats, dogs, and horses lack language? Elephants call each >other by name, octopi definitely appear to communicate symbolically >(language), whales and dolphins seem to have "language" and use it to >communicate. Did proto-humans lack language because the means of communication >were gestures, paintings, song and not dictionary words grammatically parsed? >cats dogs and horses definitely 'communicate' using sound, body language scent >(their pee smells quite different when they are conveying "I was here" and >"this is mine." > >davew > >On Sun, Jul 7, 2024, at 6:28 AM, Jochen Fromm wrote: >> I would say cats, dogs and horses don't have meta-awareness because they >> lack language. They live in the present moment, in the here and now. Without >> language they do not have the capability to reflect on their past or to >> think about their future. They can not formulate stories of themselves which >> could help to form a sense of identity. Language is the mirror in which we >> perceive ourselves during "this is me" moments. Animals lack this mirror >> completely. One dimensional scents trails do not count as language. >> >> Large languages models lack consciousness because they do not have a body >> which is embedded as a actor in an environment. These two things are >> necessary: the physical world of bodies, and the mental world of language. >> When both collide in the same spot we can get consciousness. >> >> -J. >> >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> >> Date: 7/6/24 5:05 AM (GMT+01:00) >> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We >> Thought >> >> Well, that's because Socrates claimed not to know what he thought, and since >> I genuinely don[t know what I think until I work it out, the conversation >> has the same quality. I apologize for that. my students found it truly >> distressing. >> >> So, if you will indulge me, why don't you think your cat has >> meta=awareness? Authority, ideology, or is there some experience you have >> had that leads you to think that. It would be kind of odd if it she didn't >> because animals have all sorts of ways of distinguishing self from other. >> They have ways of knowinng that "I did that". (e.g., scent marking?) >> >> >> On Fri, Jul 5, 2024 at 3:19 PM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net> wrote: >>> Well yes, if meta-awareness is defined as acting in response to one's own >>> awareness then I would say animals like a cat don't have it but humans >>> have. As an example I could say this almost feels like I am a participant >>> in a dialogue from Plato... >>> >>> I would be surprised if it can be described in simple terms. If the essence >>> of consciousness is subjective experience then it is indeed hard to >>> describe by a theory although there are many attempts. Persons who perceive >>> things differently are wired differently. And what is more subjective than >>> the perception of oneself? >>> >>> https://informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/what-is-consciousness/ >>> >>> >>> >>> If we can describe it mathematically then probably as a way an information >>> feels if it is processed in complex ways, ad infinitum like the orbits of a >>> strange attractor. >>> >>> https://chaoticatmospheres.com/mathrules-strange-attractors >>> >>> >>> >>> -J. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -------- Original message -------- >>> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> >>> Date: 7/5/24 6:56 PM (GMT+01:00) >>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> >>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We >>> Thought >>> >>> , >>> >>> Great! Baby steps. "If we aren't moving slowly, we aren't moving." So, >>> can I define some new terms, tentatively, *per explorandum* ? Let's call >>> acting-in-respect-to-the-world, "awareness". Allowing this definition, we >>> certainly seem to agree that the cat is aware. Lets define meta-awareness >>> as acting i respect to one's own awareness. Now, am I correct in assuming >>> that you identify meta-awareness with consciousness and that you think that >>> the cat is not meta-aware and that I probably am? And further that you >>> think that meta-awareness requires consciousness? >>> >>> Nick >>> >>> On Fri, Jul 5, 2024 at 12:17 PM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net> wrote: >>>> I would say a cat is conscious in the sense that it is aware of its >>>> immediate environment. Cats are nocturnal animals who hunt at night and >>>> mostly sleep during the day. Consciousness in the sense of being aware of >>>> oneself as an actor in an environment requires understanding of language >>>> which only humans have ( and LLMs now ) >>>> https://www.quantamagazine.org/insects-and-other-animals-have-consciousness-experts-declare-20240419/ >>>> >>>> -J. >>>> >>>> >>>> -------- Original message -------- >>>> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> >>>> Date: 7/5/24 5:02 AM (GMT+01:00) >>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com> >>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We >>>> Thought >>>> >>>> Jochen, >>>> >>>> *I think the first step in any conversation is to decide whether your cat >>>> is conscious. If so, why do you think so; if not, likewise. I had a >>>> facinnationg conversation with GBT about whether he was conscious and he >>>> denied it "hotly", which, of course, met one of his criteria for >>>> consciousness. * >>>> ** >>>> *So. Is your cat connscious?* >>>> ** >>>> *Nick* >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 7:26 PM Jochen Fromm <j...@cas-group.net> wrote: >>>>> I don't get Philip Goff: first we send our children 20 years to school, >>>>> from Kindergarten to college and university, to teach them all kinds of >>>>> languages, and then we wonder how they can be conscious. It will be the >>>>> same for AI: first we spend millions and millions to train them all >>>>> available knowledge, and then we wonder how they can develop >>>>> understanding of language and consciousness... >>>>> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-mystery-of-consciousness-is-deeper-than-we-thought/ >>>>> >>>>> -J -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . 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