To independently navigate the post AI world will require people that aren't fooled by fake media and are confident in their reasonably-useful models of the world? How does being feral help?
-----Original Message----- From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> On Behalf Of glen Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2023 7:13 AM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] crackpots and privilege Yeah, that was a great show. I suppose I can see "mostly independent" humans at around 10 years ... maybe even down to 5, I guess. But 2? That seems extreme. Of course, I'm ignorant of the anthropology. Maybe 2 year olds used to be much more coordinated, perhaps taller, with a better developed cortex? I thought there was a spike in pruning circa 4 years? I suppose, just like height and other features, that pruning spike might move around depending on environmental pressure. On 5/31/23 06:38, Marcus Daniels wrote: > There's also "Hanna" (2011) and the series that followed. > >> On May 31, 2023, at 6:24 AM, glen <geprope...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> What?!? The idea of a gaggle of toddlers running around hunting and >> cooking, say, boar for supper is astounding. Even Children of the >> Corn were older than 2. 8^D >> >>> On 5/31/23 06:19, Prof David West wrote: >>> "the extended juvenile development of humans," is an artifact of modern >>> industrial society. For "de-domesticated humans" development to, mostly, >>> independent existence was only marginally longer than that of other large >>> mammals. Roughly two years for humans, 18 months for elephants and bears >>> and large cats,12 months for a host of other species. >>> davew >>>> On Wed, May 31, 2023, at 5:34 AM, Roger Critchlow wrote: >>>> Eric's musing on the character of the saving remnant reminded me of Ötzi, >>>> the Tyrolean ice mummy, as portrayed in >>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceman_(2017_film) >>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceman_(2017_film)>. >>>> >>>> Some commentators note the western movie tropes, but when Ötzi gears up to >>>> chase down the pillagers of his family settlement, he also straps on the >>>> infant who was the sole survivor of the pillaging. Of course he drops the >>>> kid off with the first available woman he meets. >>>> >>>> Shades of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lone_Wolf_and_Cub >>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lone_Wolf_and_Cub>, the samurai with a baby >>>> carriage. But as I remember, the cub became part of the lone wolf's >>>> arsenal. >>>> >>>> So, when you posit a de-domesticated human, what happens to the extended >>>> juvenile development of humans? Babies and toddlers are going to remain >>>> domestic concerns no matter how much bourgeois mediocrity you eject from >>>> your morality, no? And I guess burnt out philosophers with mental health >>>> issues will be domestic issues, too, even if they were once supermen? >>>> >>>> -- rec -- >>>> >>>>> On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 10:04 AM Marcus Daniels <mar...@snoutfarm.com >>>>> <mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote: >>>> >>>> "What do I think the saving remnant will be? I imagine people who >>>> lost all the epigenetic marks associated with domestication, and took on >>>> hormone profiles more like chimps. Or “born this way” to PTSD." >>>> >>>> In stories like Elysium, the saving remnant survives. Why doesn't >>>> popular science fiction consider the future in which only Elysium endures? >>>> We have lots of experience on earth making sure that communities are >>>> partitioned by socioeconomic status. All of the saving remnants I see >>>> around here are homeless or hovering near death due to use of heroin and >>>> fentanyl. The deer, however, happily munch on my front yard plants. >>>> >>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elysium_(film) >>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elysium_(film)> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com >>>> <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On Behalf Of glen >>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 7:27 AM >>>> To: friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com> >>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] crackpots and privilege >>>> >>>> "Somehow not the domain of peace and spirituality that I think >>>> first-worlders like to project onto first-nationers, and which might even >>>> be true for the first-nationers, since they are also from a milder time by >>>> a lot than a large extinction." >>>> >>>> IDK, man. Are wild animals different from us in any significant way? >>>> Are they actually never lazy, never unvigilant, etc? Or, perhaps, is the >>>> attribution of vigilance (and hence never unvigilance) an illusion born of >>>> othering? A standard whipping post for me is this "Are you a cat person or >>>> a dog person" cocktail party ice breaker. Admitting the false dichotomy, >>>> dog people tend to think of cats as non-social, selfish, blahblah. Cat >>>> people tend to think of dogs as slobbery, vapid, etc. It's complete >>>> nonsense born of arbitrary delusions. >>>> >>>> But of course, there is something to be said of the built environment. >>>> It would be difficult for a human reared in a city to navigate the >>>> Mongolian desert. But is that difference any greater than plopping a city >>>> dweller 13,000 years in the past? Are office or political games >>>> significantly different from the "games" wild babies play under the >>>> vigilant eye of their den mother? Yeah, I know. I'm putting too much >>>> weight on "significant". Obviously, everything's different from everything >>>> else. (I regret not being able to engage more with Jon's exploration of >>>> Deleuze.) But my conservatism tells me that objective othering would rely >>>> solely on coherent traits, fingers vs. claws, hair vs. fur, cortex or no >>>> cortex. A human now would be insignificantly different from a human then. >>>> If the apocalypse doesn't transform us into something other than human, >>>> whatever is rebuilt will be strikingly similar to what we have now. >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 5/28/23 11:29, David Eric Smith wrote: >>>> > I’m not sure elitist, Steve, >>>> > >>>> > That’s one bad habit that I don’t think they have. >>>> > >>>> > More along the line, I suspect, of “out of ordinary people who >>>> mostly get mowed down, here and there will be some pockets that started to >>>> pay attention and got lucky enough to have time to make a culture of it, >>>> of sorts” >>>> > >>>> > Wes Jackson likes the term “saving remnant”. >>>> > >>>> > I happen to be in Sweden just now, and it has me thinking about >>>> sci-fi futures, ad also Nietzsche’s “last man” etc. >>>> > >>>> > Also on this theme is the very interesting SFI lecture “living with >>>> distrust”, which signals things I have seen (Ernst Fehr?) and others say >>>> about the Ache and Machiguenga and other groups. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Take any wild animal, and contemplate just how _different_ they are >>>> from us. Never lazy. Never un-vigilant. Or read Jonathan Shay’s >>>> Achilles in Vietnam. >>>> > >>>> > Suppose all the people who remain have survived only because they >>>> are that. Unwind not only the past 70 years of developed-world >>>> tranquility, but the history of human domestication since at least the >>>> younger dryas. Maybe a lot longer ago than that. >>>> > >>>> > What is it like to have your Time Machine and go spend a weekend >>>> with those guys in their home? Jared Diamond would be jealous. Somehow >>>> not the domain of peace and spirituality that I think first-worlders like >>>> to project onto first-nationers, and which might even be true for the >>>> first-nationers, since they are also from a milder time by a lot than a >>>> large extinction. >>>> > >>>> > I wish I had the imagination to be interesting. It would be >>>> invigorating to read someone who could really imagine a different world, >>>> and a different us, and take you there in some convincing way. >>>> > >>>> > Eric >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >> On May 28, 2023, at 6:55 PM, Steve Smith <sasm...@swcp.com >>>> <mailto:sasm...@swcp.com>> wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >> Eric - >>>> >> >>>> >> Thanks for passing this link around here. I suspect most here >>>> have the background to appreciate/parse this < insert Steve Martin's "hear >>>> me now and believe me later" SNL skit> but maybe not an "affordance to >>>> know" the more acute implications of it. >>>> >> >>>> >> One of the things I find (most) interesting in the RGND rhetoric is >>>> >> their (appropriate) invocation of Complex Systems ideas as well as >>>> >> the convergence of human consciousness (mostly from a neuroscience >>>> >> perspective) and the complex systems which are the >>>> >> techno-social-economic systems that are our energo-materio culture >>>> >> which is the engine that is spinning the earth-systems out of the >>>> >> orbits they were in pre-anthropocene (150 or 15000 years?) >>>> >> >>>> >> I may be reading them wrong, but this feels like "yet another" >>>> elitist trope, this time on (nanotech?) steroids: >>>> >> >>>> >> /In short, we think it’s probable that MTI civilization will >>>> >> collapse catastrophically but that pockets of people with a rising >>>> >> level of consciousness and awareness of our eco-predicament will >>>> >> survive and act as the seeders of a new world./// >>>> >> >>>> >> I particularly appreciated your pithy observation: >>>> >> >>>> >> /But here, we can maybe somehow combine the capitalists and the >>>> >> GNDers. The concentration in the rate and provision of services, >>>> and >>>> >> of the ownership of the proceeds by whoever the rulers turn out to >>>> >> be, leaves the rest of us free to die off in peace, and not carry on >>>> >> the guilt of being ecological criminals. It’s a win-win./ >>>> >> >>>> >> / >>>> >> / >>>> >> >>>> >> Thanks to Sabine (as Cassandra) and Eric and Marcus for raising >>>> this to my attention... queing it up to provide background for my read >>>> lead me to her Collective Stupidity episode >>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25kqobiv4ng >>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25kqobiv4ng>>. >>>> >> >>>> >> I am left wondering if/how LLMs reflect/relate to Wisdom/Stupidity >>>> of Crowds? Seems like LLMs are literally the encapsulation of collective >>>> knowledge. >>>> >> >>>> >> Sabine's invocation of "Information Cascades" was interesting in >>>> contrast with entrainment and canalization. Will LLMs in some way help >>>> us avoid these short-circuits/shunts? Or aggravate them? >>>> >> >>>> >> - Steve >>>> >> >>>> >> On 5/28/23 2:46 AM, David Eric Smith wrote: >>>> >>> This comment leads to an interesting angle that I haven’t heard. >>>> >>> Bill Rees, whom you can find here: >>>> >>> <d8f080_78c1ab7b00b045ff9bbc01a273b00173~mv2.jpg> >>>> >>> Home | The REAL Green New Deal Project >>>> >>> >>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.realgnd.org >>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.realgnd.org> >>>> >>> >>>> %2f&c=E,1,s4xLfGynLIjkrUt9NbN7gTjzG9OOoaJe64vBX3p4819H6jFz9AJSSe-qv9 >>>> >>> yDN4qwXF8gSayAREexT0axFnHBthp_EmNYm91Bl5Edsist24GG&typo=1> >>>> >>> realgnd.org <http://realgnd.org> >>>> >>> >>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.realgnd.org >>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.realgnd.org> >>>> >>> >>>> %2f&c=E,1,mLU-zLi9KLRqdV1LCSsLf4xAqRPWhhLSvzK0ajNxs-Bl31f_tDo3AuTO8F >>>> >>> ftJArhBwcEpVAtKd58f8Nn8HWN8QWG-poN1K4CsHllfzctVyYuePFkCMo,&typo=1> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.realgnd.org >>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.realgnd.org> >>>> >>> >>>> %2f&c=E,1,ui2uypSQ13uMOEz7hzM4YulUakJ2dduLZEW4fMauG5gh85fLSDmPC9mu3s >>>> >>> >>>> aCYT5TA1zSp3f4E7hrdi7Iu-Yxbt88L44PzeI9TxTtDQBN6mNsS-h87nJxhCE,&typo= >>>> >>> 1> writes numerous papers about how 90% of us need to die, or that >>>> >>> this is just what will happen whether we articulate such a need or >>>> not. I won’t go so far as to say that Rees “wants” 90% of us to die (see >>>> the smiling grandfatherly bearded ecologist photo in the pages), but after >>>> a long life of writing Jeremiads and not seeing the world change its ways, >>>> he seems so defeated by frustration that I read in him a deep and now >>>> constitutive misanthropy. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> (btw: the Real GND website is best read while listening to Sabine >>>> >>> Hossenfelder’s song My Name is Cassandra, Prophet of the Dark. >>>> >>> Thanks Marcus for making me aware of her oeuvre, I had never >>>> noticed >>>> >>> it.) >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Usually, the problem with the bait-and-switch of new technologies >>>> is “look, it will save so much labor we will all have leisure to be >>>> creative while still having comfortable levels of consumption”, when what >>>> actually happens is classic Marx: the few who can enclose the new >>>> services, either because they are exclusive or just through >>>> market-gravitational effects, now own an even larger sector of all income, >>>> and the expanding remnant is made increasingly desperate. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> But here, we can maybe somehow combine the capitalists and the >>>> GNDers. The concentration in the rate and provision of services, and of >>>> the ownership of the proceeds by whoever the rulers turn out to be, leaves >>>> the rest of us free to die off in peace, and not carry on the guilt of >>>> being ecological criminals. It’s a win-win. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> I worry that that story is probably incomplete, and maybe thereby >>>> wrong. The concentrating advantage of advanced autocomplete services >>>> might only be a transient while our current stock of primary knowledge is >>>> “enough” and “not fully mined”. Maybe all the inefficient activity of >>>> ordinary people is somehow a diffuse source that actually expands the >>>> primary base. Certainly my impression of ecological organizations is >>>> that, below any small population of charismatic megafauna, there is a >>>> whole pyramid that goes down to an astonishing number of nitrogen-fixer >>>> bacteria. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> But I don’t know, what organizations are necessary by physical, >>>> mathematical, and biological laws, and which might be possible that we >>>> just haven’t ever seen before. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Eric >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>>> On May 28, 2023, at 7:27 AM, Marcus Daniels <mar...@snoutfarm.com >>>> <mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Looking at the recent rapid release of open source LLM systems >>>> like Falcon and Mosaic ML, Llama, etc. there is more going-on than titans >>>> like Microsoft, and Google battling it out with giant closed systems. >>>> These are human know-how crystalized into open-source deliverables. Why >>>> not share knowledge representations in this way? Consider the cost and >>>> time that goes into medical or legal training. Sure the energy >>>> requirements of digital systems are high, but so are the energy >>>> expenditures of a planet full of humans. >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> *From:*Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com >>>> <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> on behalf of Steve Smith >>>> >>>> <sasm...@swcp.com <mailto:sasm...@swcp.com>> *Sent:*Friday, May >>>> 26, 2023 2:06 PM >>>> >>>> *To:*friam@redfish.com >>>> <mailto:friam@redfish.com><friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com>> >>>> >>>> *Subject:*Re: [FRIAM] crackpots and privilege >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> My grandsons' girlfriends (twenty-somethings) say that they >>>> think babies are disgusting. I hope they change their minds. In any >>>> case, what does a shortage of babies have to do with AI? >>>> >>>> Babies *are* (can be) disgusting, but same for puppies, kitties, >>>> and garden-soil from the right (wrong) perspective! >>>> >>>> Maybe the point is "nobody left for the AI overlords to lord >>>> over" ? >>>> >>>> I think the key is "existential threat"... I didn't look for >>>> Schmidt's statement anywhere, so I'm just speculating that maybe he's >>>> doing a mild echo of Musk's idea that a collapsing (first) world >>>> population is somehow a *bigger* existential threat? >>>> >>>> With my techhead hat on I am inclined to imagine that AI will >>>> help me (well, not ME anymore, but people vaguely like who I once thought >>>> I was or wanted to be) solve micro-techonomic problems like the ones that >>>> lead to Teflon(tm) and Velcro(tm) and higher density/faster-charge EV >>>> batteries, and higher density/dynamic range pixel-displays, and neural >>>> lace to wire (grow?) into my brain/ganglia, and microbes that can convert >>>> moon/mars-dust to Soylent/Huel/Water/??? etc. >>>> >>>> My PsychoHistory hatted self (Asimov - Foundation >>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychohistory_(fictional) >>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychohistory_(fictional)>>and >>>> thenon-fictional variant >>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychohistory#:~:text=Psychohistory%20is%20an%20amalgam%20of,stated%20intention%20and%20actual%20behavior >>>> >>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychohistory#:~:text=Psychohistory%20is%20an%20amalgam%20of,stated%20intention%20and%20actual%20behavior>.>) >>>> is inclined to imagine that AI *can* help with the "big problems", the >>>> ones nominally too large, too interdisciplinarian, too obtuse, too >>>> "wycked" (In Complexity Science jargon), possibly too counter-intuitive >>>> for most (any?) human or group of humans to grasp. >>>> >>>> My Ned Ludd (very tight by definition?) hat has me thinking more >>>> down the rabbit holes of worst-case scenarios where all the arrogant, >>>> narcissistic @$$h0ii3z of the world (starting at the top with those whose >>>> names start with Pu Tr Be Zu Mu(r/s) Ne De ... and staggering down the >>>> hierarchy of potency and scope to most of us here most of the time) think >>>> they "know what is best" and put their resources to using the AI lever to >>>> "make it so"... >>>> >>>> Even (especially) me, I constantly imagine that "if they made ME >>>> King" (or to the point, if *I* was the/wormtongue/in the AI Overlord's >>>> ear) that I would "make the world safe and happy for everyone, ever after >>>> with no unintended consequences or unpleasant side effects". >>>> >>>> One *might* guess that the smartest thinkers in the most >>>> grounded, thoughtful, gentle think-tanks (e.g. in a Tibetan Lamasary or >>>> the "Club of Rome" or SIPRI or CESR or the Justice League of America or >>>> the people who task "jewish space lasers" or ??? ) would be practicing >>>> their AI-whispering skills right now. Maybe tasking Marcus' Quantum >>>> Computer with "the hard problem of universal consciousness"? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> An up-to-date version of Asimov's9 Billion Names of God >>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nine_Billion_Names_of_God >>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nine_Billion_Names_of_God>>? >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> --- >>>> >>>>> Frank C. Wimberly >>>> >>>>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, >>>> >>>>> Santa Fe, NM 87505 >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> 505 670-9918 >>>> >>>>> Santa Fe, NM >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> On Thu, May 25, 2023, 12:48 PM Roger Critchlow <r...@elf.org >>>> <mailto:r...@elf.org> <mailto:r...@elf.org <mailto:r...@elf.org>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> Google news decided to surface an article from Fortune >>>> today. It's headlined "Society's refusal to have enough babies is what >>>> will save it from the existential threat of A. I., Eric Schmidt says". >>>> The headline is accompanied by a very serious head shot of Eric. Nice >>>> try, Google, but you're not sucking me down that rabbit hole. >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> Meanwhile, someone apparently read my mind about the >>>> rationality of disaster prepping and wrote an epic novel about it 40 years >>>> ago in Catalan. The Garden of the Seven Twilights by Miquel de Palol is >>>> available in English translation and as an ebook onoverdrive.com >>>> <http://onoverdrive.com> >>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2foverdrive.com&c=E,1,qiLuQHPdYM-73PUnxLjrSTzI76V8rfL6yb0_zHcdufFpFa1_kCTZkOyfYIh_N_0ysaWtjxXmwlL7kj8mmwGK2wfSP_01M-8QKT_yUEwBhHUL1Wuk-x_ACQBsspQ,&typo=1 >>>> >>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2foverdrive.com&c=E,1,qiLuQHPdYM-73PUnxLjrSTzI76V8rfL6yb0_zHcdufFpFa1_kCTZkOyfYIh_N_0ysaWtjxXmwlL7kj8mmwGK2wfSP_01M-8QKT_yUEwBhHUL1Wuk-x_ACQBsspQ,&typo=1>>at >>>> your local library. The narrator crosses refugee swamped Barcelona to >>>> check on his mom and gets sent off by her to a McMansion'ed medieval >>>> monastery high in the Pyrenees where the elite are amusing themselves with >>>> stories while awaiting the resolution of the first war >>>> of entertainment. Lots of stories about themselves and their friends >>>> and acquaintances. >>>> >>>>> -- ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
