I don't like to be treated like livestock so I drive rather than fly. This constrains me to North America.
--- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Mon, Dec 27, 2021, 2:56 PM Merle Lefkoff <merlelefk...@gmail.com> wrote: > Have any of you been at an airlines counter lately? > > On Mon, Dec 27, 2021 at 11:55 AM Marcus Daniels <mar...@snoutfarm.com> > wrote: > >> Here's a story that didn't involve an emergency that triggers my rage. >> >> I'm sitting at a urology clinic waiting for someone. Everyone is sitting >> quietly. Some are elderly and look unwell. The people with them, some >> also older spouses, are doing their best to get them through what may >> involve a whole sequence of treatments. They whisper. One could imagine >> some of the situations could be humiliating. >> >> Now a guy a little older than me comes in. By comparison to the others, >> he is relatively healthy and young. I count my blessings I am not him. I >> guess he is a basket case for reasons I can't explain. He starts talking >> and proves it. Turns out this guy -- thoughtful enough to talk loud >> enough to be heard 100 feet away -- was frustrated by his inability to >> empty his bladder. He went to an urgent care where they installed a >> catheter. (I wonder who goes to an urgent care for such a procedure?) >> Now a day has passed. He decides he hates the thing. He arrives at this >> specialized urology clinic -- one that schedules appointments months in >> advance -- without an appointment. >> >> He proceeds to be abusive to the desk staff and nurses and wants to talk >> to a doctor. He carries on for 15 minutes at least and works through >> different people to try to get the answer he wants. He will only use the >> name of a person (by now four of them) when it is someone that doesn't push >> back on his demands. They get names like "Miss Whatever." Eventually they >> consent to check the catheter, etc. to ensure it is properly installed but >> otherwise he must follow the guidance of his original urgent care doctor >> and wait for the scheduled removal. The rest of the patients, including >> the person I am with, just had their appointments delayed. >> >> It was very hard not to volunteer to help him with that catheter. >> >> Marcus >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> on behalf of glen < >> geprope...@gmail.com> >> *Sent:* Monday, December 27, 2021 11:23 AM >> *To:* friam@redfish.com <friam@redfish.com> >> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] bad covid story >> >> What process do we use to vet the "ministers"? >> Do we need policies and procedures for things like "aura massage"? >> Do you remove the ventilator to give them the pill? >> How much does "whatever that method may be" cost? And who will pay for it? >> How much should doctors' and nurses' and finance staff *practice* their >> proper scripts for what they can and can't say to patients? 10 hours per >> week? Just in med school? >> How many edge cases should doctors have to *calculate* through to handle >> wackos like anti-maskers? What about, say, Christian Scientists? How >> complex do the logic diagrams need to be? >> How do we set the standard for *when* to tell family members the patient >> died? Who sets that standard? What committee? >> Should the doctor wear body armor or have a body guard present when >> informing the family of a death? How much do we pay for such things? Does >> the body armor have to be sterilized? Are the body guards unionized? Who >> pays for their liability insurance? Should they carry guns? >> >> Pffft. As I said, you're being ridiculously idealistic. It's fine to >> engage in wishful thinking and dream of unicorns. But don't use that as an >> excuse for idiots who cause more problems than they solve. Moreover, don't >> use your magical thinking to apply a guilt trip to an already stressed >> workforce. >> >> >> >> On 12/27/21 10:11, Eric Charles wrote: >> > Letting people try long shot, even mystical attempts, to save a person >> we are virtually certain is going to die is less cruel. (If we can let >> ministers pray with patients, we can give them a Vitamin D pill.) >> > >> > Finding a way to let people see their dying family member, whatever >> that method may need to be, is less cruel. (The idea that the doctors have >> to calculate the risk of being accused of murder if they arrange it is a >> negative aspect of the situation, not a positive one.) >> > >> > When you are virtually certain a patient is going to die, not saying "I >> won't won't let you die" is less cruel. (It is cruel to the patient, it is >> cruel to the family, and, frankly, the idea that anyone should have to say >> such lies is cruel to the person saying the lie.) >> > >> > Not going out of your way to convince a family to come to the >> hospital if you know you won't let them in, is less cruel. >> > >> > Not seeking them out while they are still in fight-mode, to tell them >> in person that the patient died, is less cruel. >> > >> > Being prepared for extremely negative reactions in situations where >> extremely negative reactions are likely to occur, is less cruel. >> > >> > Not blaming them for your leaving the profession, after a series of >> unforced errors on your part, is less cruel. >> > >> > Do you remember the UK case with Alphie Evans? When the doctors decided >> the kid should have to stay and die in a UK hospital, rather than be >> transferred to a hospital where doctors wanted to try a long-shot >> treatment? Alfie Evans not allowed to leave country, UK court says | CNN < >> https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/25/health/alfie-evans-appeal-bn/index.html> That >> was about as dystopian and cruel as health care rules can possibly get, and >> it followed all the laws and statutes and policies that existed for >> rational reasons. As a fan of dystopian stories, I can assure you that it >> is common for them to feature bureaucracies following rationally >> constructed laws and statutes. >> > >> > I do agree with Marcus that it would have been much better if the >> family had proactively identified someone who would more closely follow the >> treatment path they wanted. I don't know what the initial path to >> hospitalization was. >> > >> > <mailto:echar...@american.edu <echar...@american.edu>> >> > >> > >> > On Mon, Dec 27, 2021 at 12:28 PM glen <geprope...@gmail.com < >> mailto:geprope...@gmail.com <geprope...@gmail.com>>> wrote: >> > >> > This is unadulterated bullshit. Sure, perhaps in some ideal world, >> where all people are rational and all systems are frictionless, "the >> process could have been much less cruel". It's bullshit in Frankfurt's >> sense because it's not quite a lie and it's not quite the truth. And given >> your (EricC) ability to think clearly and pay attention to detail, we can >> only assume you *know* it's bullshit. >> > >> > If it could have been much less cruel, then please suggest the >> concrete modifications to the current byzantine set of laws, P&Ps, cultural >> norms, agency recommendations, political forces, etc. that would get us >> from here to there. (Not the impractical nonsense in your bullets like >> patients' family members prescribing meds that nurses will administer. >> Really? Sheesh.) If you cannot get us, practically, from where we are now >> to that less cruel place, then you're just blowing idealist smoke. >> > >> > >> > On 12/27/21 09:18, Eric Charles wrote: >> > > Even if, by the time the story starts, he was going to die no >> matter what happened, the process by which that happened could have been >> much less cruel. >> > -- >> > glen >> > Theorem 3. There exists a double master function. >> > >> > >> > .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. >> .- - . >> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam < >> http://bit.ly/virtualfriam> >> > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> >> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ < >> http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> >> > archives: >> > 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ < >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/> >> > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ < >> http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/> >> > >> > >> > >> > .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- >> - . >> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >> > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> > archives: >> > 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> >> -- >> glen >> Theorem 3. There exists a double master function. >> >> >> .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: >> 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> >> .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: >> 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> > > > -- > Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D. > Center for Emergent Diplomacy > emergentdiplomacy.org > Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA > > mobile: (303) 859-5609 > skype: merle.lelfkoff2 > twitter: @merle110 > > > .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: > 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >
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