Have any of you been at an airlines counter lately? On Mon, Dec 27, 2021 at 11:55 AM Marcus Daniels <mar...@snoutfarm.com> wrote:
> Here's a story that didn't involve an emergency that triggers my rage. > > I'm sitting at a urology clinic waiting for someone. Everyone is sitting > quietly. Some are elderly and look unwell. The people with them, some > also older spouses, are doing their best to get them through what may > involve a whole sequence of treatments. They whisper. One could imagine > some of the situations could be humiliating. > > Now a guy a little older than me comes in. By comparison to the others, > he is relatively healthy and young. I count my blessings I am not him. I > guess he is a basket case for reasons I can't explain. He starts talking > and proves it. Turns out this guy -- thoughtful enough to talk loud > enough to be heard 100 feet away -- was frustrated by his inability to > empty his bladder. He went to an urgent care where they installed a > catheter. (I wonder who goes to an urgent care for such a procedure?) > Now a day has passed. He decides he hates the thing. He arrives at this > specialized urology clinic -- one that schedules appointments months in > advance -- without an appointment. > > He proceeds to be abusive to the desk staff and nurses and wants to talk > to a doctor. He carries on for 15 minutes at least and works through > different people to try to get the answer he wants. He will only use the > name of a person (by now four of them) when it is someone that doesn't push > back on his demands. They get names like "Miss Whatever." Eventually they > consent to check the catheter, etc. to ensure it is properly installed but > otherwise he must follow the guidance of his original urgent care doctor > and wait for the scheduled removal. The rest of the patients, including > the person I am with, just had their appointments delayed. > > It was very hard not to volunteer to help him with that catheter. > > Marcus > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> on behalf of glen < > geprope...@gmail.com> > *Sent:* Monday, December 27, 2021 11:23 AM > *To:* friam@redfish.com <friam@redfish.com> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] bad covid story > > What process do we use to vet the "ministers"? > Do we need policies and procedures for things like "aura massage"? > Do you remove the ventilator to give them the pill? > How much does "whatever that method may be" cost? And who will pay for it? > How much should doctors' and nurses' and finance staff *practice* their > proper scripts for what they can and can't say to patients? 10 hours per > week? Just in med school? > How many edge cases should doctors have to *calculate* through to handle > wackos like anti-maskers? What about, say, Christian Scientists? How > complex do the logic diagrams need to be? > How do we set the standard for *when* to tell family members the patient > died? Who sets that standard? What committee? > Should the doctor wear body armor or have a body guard present when > informing the family of a death? How much do we pay for such things? Does > the body armor have to be sterilized? Are the body guards unionized? Who > pays for their liability insurance? Should they carry guns? > > Pffft. As I said, you're being ridiculously idealistic. It's fine to > engage in wishful thinking and dream of unicorns. But don't use that as an > excuse for idiots who cause more problems than they solve. Moreover, don't > use your magical thinking to apply a guilt trip to an already stressed > workforce. > > > > On 12/27/21 10:11, Eric Charles wrote: > > Letting people try long shot, even mystical attempts, to save a person > we are virtually certain is going to die is less cruel. (If we can let > ministers pray with patients, we can give them a Vitamin D pill.) > > > > Finding a way to let people see their dying family member, whatever that > method may need to be, is less cruel. (The idea that the doctors have to > calculate the risk of being accused of murder if they arrange it is a > negative aspect of the situation, not a positive one.) > > > > When you are virtually certain a patient is going to die, not saying "I > won't won't let you die" is less cruel. (It is cruel to the patient, it is > cruel to the family, and, frankly, the idea that anyone should have to say > such lies is cruel to the person saying the lie.) > > > > Not going out of your way to convince a family to come to the > hospital if you know you won't let them in, is less cruel. > > > > Not seeking them out while they are still in fight-mode, to tell them in > person that the patient died, is less cruel. > > > > Being prepared for extremely negative reactions in situations where > extremely negative reactions are likely to occur, is less cruel. > > > > Not blaming them for your leaving the profession, after a series of > unforced errors on your part, is less cruel. > > > > Do you remember the UK case with Alphie Evans? When the doctors decided > the kid should have to stay and die in a UK hospital, rather than be > transferred to a hospital where doctors wanted to try a long-shot > treatment? Alfie Evans not allowed to leave country, UK court says | CNN < > https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/25/health/alfie-evans-appeal-bn/index.html> That > was about as dystopian and cruel as health care rules can possibly get, and > it followed all the laws and statutes and policies that existed for > rational reasons. As a fan of dystopian stories, I can assure you that it > is common for them to feature bureaucracies following rationally > constructed laws and statutes. > > > > I do agree with Marcus that it would have been much better if the family > had proactively identified someone who would more closely follow the > treatment path they wanted. I don't know what the initial path to > hospitalization was. > > > > <mailto:echar...@american.edu <echar...@american.edu>> > > > > > > On Mon, Dec 27, 2021 at 12:28 PM glen <geprope...@gmail.com < > mailto:geprope...@gmail.com <geprope...@gmail.com>>> wrote: > > > > This is unadulterated bullshit. Sure, perhaps in some ideal world, > where all people are rational and all systems are frictionless, "the > process could have been much less cruel". It's bullshit in Frankfurt's > sense because it's not quite a lie and it's not quite the truth. And given > your (EricC) ability to think clearly and pay attention to detail, we can > only assume you *know* it's bullshit. > > > > If it could have been much less cruel, then please suggest the > concrete modifications to the current byzantine set of laws, P&Ps, cultural > norms, agency recommendations, political forces, etc. that would get us > from here to there. (Not the impractical nonsense in your bullets like > patients' family members prescribing meds that nurses will administer. > Really? Sheesh.) If you cannot get us, practically, from where we are now > to that less cruel place, then you're just blowing idealist smoke. > > > > > > On 12/27/21 09:18, Eric Charles wrote: > > > Even if, by the time the story starts, he was going to die no > matter what happened, the process by which that happened could have been > much less cruel. > > -- > > glen > > Theorem 3. There exists a double master function. > > > > > > .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. > .- - . > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam < > http://bit.ly/virtualfriam> > > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com < > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> > > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ < > http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> > > archives: > > 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ < > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/> > > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ < > http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/> > > > > > > > > .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - > . > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > > archives: > > 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > > -- > glen > Theorem 3. There exists a double master function. > > > .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: > 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > > .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: > 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > -- Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D. Center for Emergent Diplomacy emergentdiplomacy.org Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA mobile: (303) 859-5609 skype: merle.lelfkoff2 twitter: @merle110
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