A photo of me, my oldest cousin, and my grandfather taken at that time (WW2). That's a railroad boxcar used as a temporary residence for transient railroad workers.
--- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Fri, Aug 27, 2021, 1:45 PM Frank Wimberly <wimber...@gmail.com> wrote: > During WW2, while my father was serving in the Pacific, my mother and I > lived with her parents in a little village in the mountains of rural New > Mexico. We lived in a two bedroom house with running water but no > bathroom. Heat was provided by a wood burning stove that was used for > cooking as well. There was a battery powered console radio. I was between > 4 months and 30 months old. I was bathed in a galvanized washtub and I > remember that. We had no shortage of food nor clothing. My grandfather > worked for the Santa Fe Railroad as a section foreman and had a secure > salary. I remember being happy but, for the most part, I was oblivious. A > kid that age isn't happy if the adults, particularly his mother, aren't > happy. After my mother and I moved away from there after the War we > visited often until I was five. I remember my grandparents enjoying life > for the most part. > > To live like that today would require me to give up almost everything I > have. But I feel nostalgic for that time and fond of those memories. > > --- > Frank C. Wimberly > 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, > Santa Fe, NM 87505 > > 505 670-9918 > Santa Fe, NM > > On Fri, Aug 27, 2021, 1:23 PM <thompnicks...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> So, of the privileges you enjoy and list, how many would have to go away >> before you life would be no longer “decent”? >> >> >> >> To be honest, Idon’t know what I am fishing for here, but for some reason >> the answer to that question seems important to me. I guess, I am thinking >> that the notion of a decent life, like that of a essential worker, hides >> some caste implications within it. That some of us are of a nature that >> they SHOULD be satisfied with less than would satisfy me. >> >> >> >> N >> >> >> >> Nick Thompson >> >> thompnicks...@gmail.com >> >> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ >> >> >> >> *From:* Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Pieter >> Steenekamp >> *Sent:* Friday, August 27, 2021 3:06 PM >> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < >> friam@redfish.com> >> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] "All [persons] are created equal" >> >> >> >> Nick, >> >> Thanks for asking how I would characterize the life I'm leading. My life >> is just great, I'm satisfied with my life. My need for food, safety, love >> and self-esteem are to a large degree met. Actually, I would rate myself on >> the self-actualization level on Moslow's hierarchy. >> >> It's not about me, there are many people in South Africa who's basic >> physiological needs like food and safety are not met. >> >> Pieter >> >> >> >> On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 at 20:28, <thompnicks...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Pieter, >> >> >> >> If, in your ideal world, their lives are “decent, ” how would you >> characterize the life that you are leading. The way you talk sounds a bit >> like the way we talk about “essential” workers here. >> >> >> >> N >> >> >> >> Nick Thompson >> >> thompnicks...@gmail.com >> >> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ >> >> >> >> *From:* Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Pieter >> Steenekamp >> *Sent:* Friday, August 27, 2021 1:49 PM >> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < >> friam@redfish.com> >> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] "All [persons] are created equal" >> >> >> >> Dave wrote *Why this obsession with "equality?"* >> >> >> >> I totally agree. But in South Africa we have a large portion of the >> population that do not have food on the table every day and I simply don't >> think it's right. >> >> So, my view is that instead of obsessing with "equality", we should >> obsess that those on the bottom of the economic ladder should at least have >> decent lives. >> >> Pieter >> >> >> >> On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 at 19:11, <thompnicks...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Dave, >> >> >> >> I think of mathematical abstractions as aspirations. >> >> >> >> Thanks for meeting me on my own ground, here. You will recall that my >> original project was to try and discover what the metaphysical foundations >> might be for my strong negative response to the idea that castes are >> tolerable. What MUST I assume in order to think as I do. I have for many >> years suspected that the fundamental difference between comfortable BHL’s >> like me and comfortable conservatives is that we liberals see our comfort >> as arising from good luck, and they see their comfort as arising from their >> merit. Now, all metaphysics is non-sense, except insofar as it explains >> and encourages an approach to other people that is … um …. Good. I think >> than mine encourages me to approach people less wealthy than I, not as >> people deserving of their fate but as people who have, in some sense, made >> me a gift. Thus if there is kharma, it should be that the fortunate >> “should” pay for the correction of any absence of randomness that >> intergenerational transfers might inflict on the children of the poor. >> >> >> >> I lay this out in this naïve way because I thought it might provoke a >> strong (and perhaps equally naïve) reaction from Sarbajit which would make >> it immediately clear what different places we are coming from. Sarbajit >> may not answer, in which case I am left having revealed my naivete >> metaphysics to you bozos with all the consequences that must follow. >> >> >> >> Now remember, nobody ever claimed that all [persons] are created equal. >> I think that we all will agree that all persons are created equal [ in] and >> that they are endowed … with certain unalienable rights …” “– i.e., >> they should be equal before the law. Our differences lie between these two >> poles. I take the “and” seriously, and think that, above and beyond the >> legal rights implied by the “endowment” conveyed by the second clause, they >> have an obligation of humbleness and gratitude to all those what have their >> good fortune possible, and that, at the very minimum that obligation should >> be expressed in an overtly redistributive tax policy. >> >> >> >> But even if you don’t accept the further implications of severing the two >> clauses in the way that I do, the notion of equality before the law demands >> much more of the rich than they currently pay. For instance, when J. P. >> Morgan IX runs over the faithful k-9 companion of the homeless Max Morgan >> and Max decides to sue, J.P. can pay the requested amount, including Max’s >> court costs and be done with it. If he decides to contest, then both >> parties should pay into the court costs in proportion to their wealth and >> the lawyers should be assigned at random. >> >> >> >> To the extent that the list is laced with libertarians, I don’t expect >> much sympathy from the list for any of this. If one thing unites >> libertarians, I would wager, it is the idea that people get what they >> deserve, or at least, that they have the right to hang on to whatever they >> get. >> >> >> >> So, Dave: What is your naïve metaphysics? >> >> >> >> Nick >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Nick Thompson >> >> thompnicks...@gmail.com >> >> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ >> >> >> >> *From:* Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Prof David West >> *Sent:* Friday, August 27, 2021 11:17 AM >> *To:* friam@redfish.com >> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] "All [persons] are created equal" >> >> >> >> OK, curmudgeon and misanthrope that I am, I still must ask: >> >> >> >> Why this obsession with "equality?" >> >> >> >> Outside of the abstraction of math, no one thing is equal, in any sense, >> to another, let alone all members of a set of things being equal to each >> other. >> >> >> >> Narrowing our attention to human beings. it has already been noted that >> the dimensions of potential inequality are myriad. It would be impossible >> to "equalize" all dimensions simultaneously, so pick one, income for >> example, and equalize on that dimension. >> >> >> >> To what end? What outcome would you expect to see? Why would it not be >> the case that every possible outcome would result in persistent >> "inequalities" because all the other dimensions of difference would swamp >> your 'independent variable' of income? >> >> >> >> No two human beings are created equal, let alone all "men." (sic) But the >> unfounded conviction that this must be 'true' demands the invention of myth >> to explain why it is not. And those myths are, in my opinion, harmful and >> divisive. >> >> >> >> I agree with Pieter (and probably everyone else on this list) that the >> current state of income inequality is evil and untenable. But, I would >> disagree with any means of rectifying the situation that is grounded in any >> kind of myth of individual human "equality." >> >> >> >> davew >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Aug 27, 2021, at 1:34 AM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote: >> >> If you just look at the world then "all [persons] are created equal" is >> just nonsense. What I like to focus on is what can we as a society do, and >> what can I personally do to move towards making all more equal? It's >> obviously not practical to expect heaven on earth, but IMO the current >> state of inequality is just not acceptable, but that's no reason to do >> nothing. For now I just address the first one, what can we as a society do? >> >> >> >> The current state of politics is to a large extent driven by ideology and >> I would like to see a movement towards a more practical, and humble >> approach. Like an approach based on the philosophy behind the 2019 economic >> Nobel prize winners Banerjee, Duflo and Kremer. Their approach to reduce >> global poverty is experiment-based, taken from science. >> >> >> >> I quote from >> https://www.forbes.com/sites/camilomaldonado/2019/10/14/nobel-prize-in-economics-won-by-trio-tackling-global-poverty/ >> : >> >> "Their work, which tackles one of humanities most pressing issues, is >> based on the idea that to battle poverty, the issues should be broken down >> into smaller pieces and studied via small field experiments to answer >> precise questions within the communities who are most affected." >> >> >> >> Another quote: >> >> "Poor people are supposed to be either completely desperate or lazy or >> entrepreneurial but people don’t – we don’t try to … understand the deep >> root and interconnected root of poverty." - Esther Duflo >> >> >> >> I don't mind if anybody wants to understand the deep root and >> interconnected root of poverty, it's just that I personally, like Esther >> Duflo, like to focus on what to do about it. >> >> >> >> Pieter >> >> >> >> On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 at 05:07, <thompnicks...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Dave, >> >> >> >> This is, of course, exactly the opposite of my creation myth in which the >> slate is wiped clean after every generation. But it would explain a belief >> system in which well-being was the deserved reward of having lived well in >> a previous life. >> >> >> >> While I am here, please let me point out that “equal in law” seems a >> rather constrained understanding “born equal”, given especially that the >> passage goes on to add equality in law (well rights, actually) as an >> additional endowment. >> >> >> >> “… and they are endowed by their Creator by certain rights, including >> life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. >> >> >> >> Where is John Dobson when we need him. Could somebody please forward >> this note to him. I don’t have his email address here with me. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> >> Nick >> >> Nick Thompson >> >> thompnicks...@gmail.com >> >> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ >> >> >> >> *From:* Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Prof David West >> >> *Sent:* Thursday, August 26, 2021 10:17 PM >> >> *To:* friam@redfish.com >> >> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] "All [persons] are created equal" >> >> >> >> Purely from my academic understanding of the subject; the Nick that is, >> at this moment / in this incarnation, is a product of karma accrued and >> shed over multiple instances of existence. Hence, what you are now is >> precisely what you *deserve* to be. All persons may have been created >> equal some untold incarnations ago and before they had any opportunity to >> accrete karma. >> >> >> >> davew >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 2:04 PM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote: >> >> Sarbajit, >> >> >> >> If I understand the shape of the globe correctly, you are waking up >> pretty soon, and I would like to pick up the conversation about caste, if >> you don’t mind. >> >> >> >> I believe the proposition in the subject line. Given the many ways that >> proposition can be understood as plainly false, I feel that my belief in it >> must be defended. >> >> >> >> In what sense equal? Not in genes. Not in uterine environment. . Not >> in early nutrition and cognitive stimulation. Not in social capitol. Not in >> financial capitol. Not in access to health care. Not in exposure to >> future parasites. Not in almost anything that I can think of. So, why is >> the aphorism not just nonsense. >> >> >> >> I find, that if I examine my thinking in this matter, a very primitive >> metaphysics about the moment of an individual’s creation. What follows is >> flagrantly silly, but here it is. On my account, at the moment of birth a >> soul is taken out of storage and assigned to a body. By “person” in the >> aphorism, I mean the combination of a particular soul with the particular >> body. These assignments are at random. So, for good or ill, no soul >> deserves the body it gets. I cannot claim credit for my genes, my good >> uterine environment, my social capitol, my financial capitol, my bad hip, >> the draft deferment it provided, my getting a phd at absolute peak of >> demand for phd’s, my good education, even my FRIAM membership. They are >> all consequences of that initial, random assignment. Now YOU may credit >> me in some ways, because knowing that all these advantages have been >> assigned to me may make me useful or pleasing (or the opposite) in many >> ways, and that may bring me the advantages of your association. But è I >> ç do not èdeserveç those advantages. >> >> >> >> This odd metaphysics leads me to enormous gratitude for the life I have >> been allowed to live and great sympathy for rigorous taxation of the >> advantaged, so that so much a soul’s future is not determined by that >> moment of assignment. >> >> >> >> I have no idea what happens to this primitive metaphysics if I try to >> integrate it with my monism. The religious scholars among you might >> recognize as some backass weird perversion of Calvinism. >> >> >> >> >> >> Nick Thompson >> >> thompnicks...@gmail.com >> >> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ >> >> >> >> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >> >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> >> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >> >> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> >> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >> >> >> >> >> >> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >> >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> >> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >> >> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> >> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >> >> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >> >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> >> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >> >> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> >> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >> >> >> >> >> >> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >> >> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >> >> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam >> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >> >
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