Replying mostly to Steve's post about psychedelics /CAW, I was a member of the Minneapolis Nest of CAW when I was an undergraduate student 68-72 and I must confess it was mostly about the sex, closely followed by struggles to re-define gender/social relationships/roles when everyone acknowledged, "Thou Art God." The "spiritual" never went much beyond pop, new age, psychology Gaia adoration. And psychedelics were not part of the equation.
When I get back home to the US, I should look up my notes and writings from that time re: gender/social redefinition - it might be relevant but dated to a subset of issues that could arise from trans-humanism. How will we all interact when all of will acknowledge, "Thou Art Uploaded." I have extensive experience with all of the psychedlics (psylocibin, lsd, peyote, mescaline, ariocarpus, etc.). Except for my first experience, mushrooms as I remember, none of the use was 'recreational'. All of the use was entwined with my pursuit of "mystical" insights via meditation, yoga, etc. Eventually all of that was subsumed under the research umbrella of my Ph.D. work in cognitive anthropology. For me, at a deeply personal level, a benefit of all this is what feels like an insight into the myriad, totally artificial, totally arbitrary facades that have been constructed around issues of epistemology. Corollary to that is the mandated privilege accorded to rational, scientific, mathematical, computational "thinking" and "knowing" even when it is evident that such thinking resolves only the simplest of questions. As our friend was always saying at FRIAM, "ah, but it is more complicated than that." Molly, I have found, is most useful when it forces us to confront the artificial boundaries and limitations that all of us adopt vis-a-vis interpersonal interaction. In the CAW nest, a culture of exploration/questioning/permissiveness existed that allowed the struggles to redefine mentioned in the first paragraph. Absent such a culture, Molly, in a guided context can allow similar questioning. davew On Wed, Apr 17, 2019, at 10:53 PM, Steven A Smith wrote: > Marcus - >> Perhaps ... there will be more interest in protection & enhancement >> cognition as well. >> Of course there’s Kernel <https://kernel.co/> and Neuralink >> <https://www.neuralink.com/> too. I know Kung Fu >> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vMO3XmNXe4>! >> >> https://www.cell.com/cell-reports/fulltext/S2211-1247(17)30990-7 > You have referenced various technologies and ideas which I relate mostly to > trans-humanism. The softer versions IMO are things like advanced prosthetics, > HCI enhancement and (mild) Gene Editing on up through significant > self-modification (embedded tech as well as genetics) to the radical things > folks such as Diamandis and Kurzweil and ultimately a technological > singularity. > There is a LOT of ground in that spectrum and we've already covered some of > it as humans. Earlier references to the co-evolution of humans and canines > were not as intentional, but nevertheless seems to have changed "who we are". > Similar relationships with reindeer and other herd animals as well as even > various plants (e.g. what became modern grains, fruits, and squash/melons). > Tribal/cultural taboos and kinship systems regulated "breeding", etc. > I came of age after the "golden age" of Speculative Fiction (I was born under > the rising sign of Sputnik) which plopped me right into the SciFi era of more > realistic Space Exploration (still wildly speculative, but replacing old-form > Space Opera with more realistic (given the immenseness of Interstellar Space > and issues like Relativity). Proto Cyberpunk was in the air (i.e. Phillip K. > Dick, John Brunner, etc.) with the rapidly increasing relevance of digital > technology. Cyberpunk hit hard with Sterling and Gibson and brought to a > larger readership with the likes of Stephenson, Cadigan, Banks, et al. > In the Spirit of the Generation W, X, Y, Z discussion. I believe that these > "bards" of Sci and Tech helped to form and seed our imaginations for our > future careers. It seems that X gen is much more on-board with Cybernetic and > Genetic enhancement. > My Second Cousin once removed (my mother was raised by her grandmother, who > was HER aunt) Vonda McIntyre > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vonda_N._McIntyre> died a few weeks ago at 70. > She was an influential Speculative Fiction writer whose chops included > founding the Clarion West Writer's workshop and a handful of Hugo and Nebula > awards. Particularly poignant for her was beating out JRR Martin in 97 for > his Game Of Thrones with her Moon and Sun, then having her book made into a > Movie (starring Pierce Brosnan) that *never got released* while Martin... > well, you know... She had a degree in Biology, did grad work in Genetics and > hung around the HIT (human interface and technology) lab at UW long after > graduation. Her _Starfarer_ series included the trope of trans/post humanism, > inspired or fashioned partly with her fascination with the Pods of Orcas > living amongst the San Juan Islands nearly in her back yard. > I personally expect *practical* post/transhumanism to continue inevitably at > an accelerated rate and see no advantage in trying to stand in it's way, but > DO feel an ethical drive to try to at least caution against the kinds of > technological-outrunning-of-headlights I believe already lead us to things > like Dustbowl, Wildfire, Infestation, and Inundation disasters, and pointedly > Anthropogenic Climate Change (which contributes to all of the above) and > multigenerational Refugee Crises. > As an (apparent) proponent of fairly aggressive trans-humanism, can you > elaborate on what you see as the biggest promises/cautions to the ideas > involved? Do you see my "caution" as wrong headed, or just irrelevant (in > practice)? > - Steve > >> >> >> >> *From: *Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> on behalf of Steven A Smith >> <sasm...@swcp.com> >> *Reply-To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group >> <friam@redfish.com> >> *Date: *Wednesday, April 17, 2019 at 12:47 PM >> *To: *"friam@redfish.com" <friam@redfish.com> >> *Subject: *Re: [FRIAM] Everything she knows... >> >> Dave/Glen - >> What I'm hearing about some European youth cultures seems very promising. I >> can't begin to know what to attribute it to, and I feel mildly superstitious >> about trying to describe it as a "new precedent" that might presage a >> fundamental cultural shift following that demographic. >> References to Molly and other consciousness-expanding drugs seem to often >> come up in this context. As an outsider (but nearby observer) to the culture >> of mind expanding drugs, I don't have very informed opinions. Since terms >> like "worship" and "spiritual" have come up in the text of our contemporary >> threads a few times, I thought I might zoom in on this contrast as found in >> the Psychedelic Times >> <https://psychedelictimes.com/2015/12/16/what-is-the-meaning-of-psychedelic-the-difference-between-psychedelics-hallucinogens-and-entheogens/> >> website: >>> *What’s in a Name? Choosing Between Psychedelic, Hallucinogen, and >>> Entheogen* >>> The names that we have attached to consciousness-expanding substances like >>> psychedelic, hallucinogen, and entheogen are important in what they say >>> about our understanding of their value and proper use. When people use the >>> term hallucinogen, there is little to no recognition in that word for the >>> therapeutic and beneficial applications for these substances. On the other >>> hand, those in line with the mystical traditions of the world may prefer to >>> use the term entheogen because of its specific denotation about their >>> inherent sacredness. And for those who are somewhere in the middle and want >>> to describe these substances in a more clinical way but still honor their >>> efficacy at bringing forth powerful personal transformation, the term >>> psychedelic offers the best of both worlds. >> It seems to me that some of this is about "what unites us?" It seems that >> independent of the Entheogenic aspect of these drugs, some of them (MDMA and >> DMT based in particular?) seem to lower the ego-boundaries (while the others >> "expand"? the ego?) I'm sure there are more than a few here who are much >> more familiar and informed on these topics than I will likely ever be. The >> topic appears to be one of those which is much too subjective to ever be >> very objective about. "you had to be there"? >> >> I have two young (30-something)close friends/colleagues from UK/Spain who >> visit semi-regularly and introduce me to a wide variety of their own >> euro-crowd (e.g. Poland, E. Germany, Ukraine, Wales, Spain, etc.). What they >> have in common includes being very technologically savvy but working in >> highly creative/artistic domains, and being well traveled. Many of them do >> not own personal vehicles, and several do not even have drivers licenses. >> They seem to have very fluid boundaries between their personal, >> professional, and creative lives. To my awareness, their social fluidity is >> intrinsic to their culture, but may be lubricated by their fairly pervasive >> use of Nicotine, THC, Alcohol, and Caffeine... fairly standard fair among a >> broader group (though Nicotine seems in severe decline among baby boomers). >> >> Responding to Dave's reference to Heinlein's _Stranger_ and the "CAW"... I >> read _Stranger_ a bit too young for the material (perhaps age 12?) about 8 >> years after it was published. I had hit my stride as an "unbeliever" in all >> of the conventional religions I had been offered (directly or by exposure), >> and while my older sister (14) was busy seeking even harder for a religion >> she could sink her ego into, I was coming to the belief that such embedding >> was maybe a false path and was looking for ways to dance lightly on the >> surface of as many of them as I felt were relevant to me and my trajectory >> in life. The substance of _Stranger_ was very compelling to me at the time >> (as was most if not all of RAH's material) but the CAW was no more >> compelling than the varied Protestant churches, Catholics, and LDS I was >> surrounded by. Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, Animism, etc. >> were all terms I was aware of but had very little understanding of. They all >> (except maybe the last two?) seemed to be arcane and archaic systems of >> "conveyed mystery" more than a self-evident system for navigating >> contemporary experience. >> >> I had already become mildly aware of what was mostly derisively called >> "Secular Humanism" at the time and it seemed like a "darn good foundation" >> for living a thoughtful, ethical life. It seemed to me that to whatever >> extent the "reserved wisdom" of any particular religion was useful, it could >> be overlayed onto such a "secular" approach living a thoughtful, ethical >> life. The vehemence which I saw many of the churches *against* secular >> humanism respond, suggested to me that it held something a lot more powerful >> than I realized. >> >> The recent (20 years?) fascination among my near-peers with entheogens, and >> in particular DMT variants, and more generally with the likes of Michael >> Pollan in his recent _How to Change your Mind_ and not-so-recent Oliver >> Sack's _Hallucinations_ , have lead me to have a more curious (if not open?) >> mind on the topic. >> >> While it seems conceivable that there is a significant modern progressive >> youth culture that might imply a powerful paradigm shift which *depends* on >> MDMA (or similar) cognitive/social lubricants/solvents to achieve this level >> of social fluidity, it seems a shame if that is *necessary*. I'm willing to >> acknowledge that sometimes one must take various "shortcuts" while exploring >> new territory, but once the new territory is known to exist, other more >> "conventional" routes might be found. >> >> In my never-ending quest for handholds for my scrambling optimism for a >> future for life, our species, our culture, I am grasping... >> >> - Steve >>> Glen, >>> >>> Your comments about your Swedish friend's kids reminded me of a >>> ethnographic expedition I once led. Four undergraduate cultural >>> anthropology students followed me to San Francisco to do a study of "cyber >>> culture." We started in Silicon Valley with Jared Lanier and multiple VR >>> pioneers, which led to the electronic music culture, which led to the >>> Castro district leather gay community, which led to Raves, and eventually >>> to the Church of All Worlds convention north of The City. >>> >>> Quite an eye opener for affluent Catholic suburbanites that attended the >>> University of St. Thomas. Molly was on the horizon then, but Acid and >>> Mushrooms and Cacti were in abundance. >>> >>> For those not SciFi fans, CAW is the second American religion deriving from >>> a science fiction novel; after Dianetics which orginated in Hubbard's >>> "Battleship Earth." CAW was founded by Michael Valentine Smith in Robert >>> Heinlein's novel "Stranger in a Strange Land." CAW remains a small but >>> vibrant religion. >>> >>> davew >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 17, 2019, at 3:54 PM, glen∈ℂ wrote: >>>> On 4/16/19 11:52 PM, David West wrote: >>>>> I am currently in Amsterdam - probably moving here for several years as >>>>> two colleagues and I are starting a software development business. >>>> I'm jealous! A friend of mine in Utrecht suggested we start an >>>> organization together. But until Renee' finished school we were rooted >>>> here. >>>> >>>>> While abandoning the institution of religion, the Dutch (who I am coming >>>>> to know) remain religious in the sense that they still have a belief >>>>> system. It is a syncretic 'religion' that seamlessly blends humanism, >>>>> (mostly) Protestantism, and "sciencism." This religion has no dogma, no >>>>> dictats, no fatwas. An anthropomorphized/personified God is far closer to >>>>> metaphor than literal assertion. What remains is a shared 'sense' of how >>>>> to interpret all that is about you and how to interact with each other. >>>> This sounds similar to the way my Swedish client's 20-something kids >>>> and their crowd believe(d). It felt much more like an ethical system >>>> than a religion. As usual, I spent more time with the kids than with >>>> the adults ... maybe because I'm so immature ... or maybe I'm a social >>>> vampire. But by the nature of my skeptical questioning, some of the >>>> kids reacted (defensively) as if some of the ideas were religious >>>> belief. But not very different from some of the near-religious beliefs >>>> in some technical circles (e.g. the Singularity and strong AI). I also >>>> can't help but associate their blended philosophy with the free flow of >>>> Molly in their crowd. That group flowed smoothly between art and tech, >>>> equally enthusiastic about microcontrollers and VR as they were about >>>> music and art installations. The drug seemed to facilitate the blending. >>>> >>>> As I've watched them age and settle into life paths, the frenetic >>>> activity has waned, but the philosophy remains. >>>> >>>> ============================================================ >>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove >>>> >>> ============================================================ >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove >>> >> >> ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove >> > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove >
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
