On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 01:24:47AM -0600, Nicholas Thompson wrote: > So, Russ S, > > when you say, > > "> I got lost at step 4 here. The obvious syllogism of (1), (2) & (3) is > > that an emergent property is not a property of a micro entity. But > > this doesn't surprise me, as its actually my definition of emergence." > > Does that mean that you are comfortable saying that emergence is actually a > relationship between two different properties of the same object. >
Not exactly. It is more a relationship between languages. It is the presence of a property (the emergent one) expressed in one language that is impossible to express in the other language. We would normally say the languages are incommensurate, although Glen used a neat term for it the other day starting with "lexical" that raised the other Russ's eyebrows. > I agree that the emergent property ... "being a copying device" has to be a > property of the macro entity. But in this case, the CAUSE of the emergent > property is also an emergent property, i.e., "being composed of parts > arranged in a double helix". > > Is saying that a wooden construction is strong because its members are > formed in triangles is like saying that a ball rolls because it is round? > > You wouldnt be the first Russ to say that I am getting my knickers > unnecessarily twisted over this, but it does seem .... queer .... to me in > someway. > Um, well, maybe you are getting your knickers in a twist. I don't really get your point, queer or no :(. > NIck > Nicholas S. Thompson > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, > Clark University ([email protected]) > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > > > > > > [Original Message] > > From: russell standish <[email protected]> > > To: <[email protected]>; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity > Coffee Group <[email protected]> > > Date: 9/26/2009 8:35:52 PM > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Emergence Seminar, III: Wimsatt and Searle > > > > On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 07:50:53PM -0600, Nicholas Thompson wrote: > > > All, > > > > > > As you all may remember, I had decided on the basis of my first two > > > readings of Wimsatt, that his was the final word on the definition of > > > emergence: a property of a macro-entity is emergent when it depends on > the > > > arrangement of the micro entities [in time and/or in space]. > > > Unfortunately, I read it a third time. > > > > > > I woke up in the middle of the night realizing what was wrong with his > > > position. > > > > > > (1) Ineliminably, emergence has to do with the relation between macro > and > > > micro entities. (I suppose somebody might challange that statement, > but I > > > dont think anybody has so far.) > > > > > > (2) Emergent properties of a macro entity are those that are dependant > on > > > the arrangement of the micro entities. > > > > > > (3) But "An arrangement of X's" cannot be a property of any microentity > > > (duh!). > > > > > > (4) There fore, whatever (2) IS a definition of, it cannot be a > definition > > > of emergence OR emergence does not have to do with relations among > levels. > > > > > > > > > Back to the old drawing board. > > > > > > n > > > > > > > I got lost at step 4 here. The obvious syllogism of (1), (2) & (3) is > > that an emergent property is not a property of a micro entity. But > > this doesn't surprise me, as its actually my definition of emergence. > > > > -- > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) > > Mathematics > > UNSW SYDNEY 2052 [email protected] > > Australia http://www.hpcoders.com.au > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Mathematics UNSW SYDNEY 2052 [email protected] Australia http://www.hpcoders.com.au ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
