Perhaps this will have been related to the Thiotimoline effect, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiotimoline First identified in Issac Asimov's 1948 paper, "The Endochronic Properties of Resublimated Thiotimoline".
Carl Nicholas Thompson wrote: > All, > > Re: cause before effect: One night, just before midnight, I got three > email messages from a friend in NZ which my mailer dutifully carried at the > head of my list (most recent) for 24 hours. > > Re: evolutionary economics: Has anyboyd read "Second Nature" by Haim Ofek. > Not evolutionary economics in the sense that Russell was speaking, no > doubt, but a heluva ride. I wish somebody else would read it and tell me > what they think. > > Nick > > Nicholas Thompson > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson > > > >> [Original Message] >> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> To: <[email protected]> >> Date: 7/27/2006 7:38:30 AM >> Subject: Friam Digest, Vol 37, Issue 51 >> >> Send Friam mailing list submissions to >> [email protected] >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of Friam digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Friam Digest, Vol 37, Issue 47 (Nicholas Thompson) >> 2. Re: Friam Digest, Vol 37, Issue 47 (Russell Standish) >> 3. Re: Is it economics or biology (Russell Standish) >> 4. Causality violations (Jochen Fromm) >> 5. We meet at 7 pm (Mike Oliker) >> 6. Re: Causality violations (Bill Eldridge) >> 7. Re: Causality violations (Jochen Fromm) >> 8. Re: Causality violations (Russell Standish) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 00:45:06 -0400 >> From: "Nicholas Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Friam Digest, Vol 37, Issue 47 >> To: "Russell Standish" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "The Friday Morning >> Applied Complexity Coffee Group" <[email protected]> >> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII >> >> Russell, >> >> One of the first things I intend to do when I have retired in January is >> read book with titles like yours, but until then, you will need to wave >> excerpts at me or something. >> >> Do you know anything about the New Realism of the 1910's at Harvard. A >> group of james students wrote a New Realist Manifesto which seems to have >> been based on the Scottish Realism. Those students included Edward Holt, >> who spawned jj and ej gibson (of ecological psych fame) and E. C. Tolman, >> the inventor of cognitive behaviorism, and ultimately a traitor to the >> cause in my opinion. >> >> The basic idea is that reality can be cut in various ways and different >> observers SEE different cuts. All cuts are REAL properties of the object >> but also manifestations of the point of view of the observor. To use >> > terms > >> I am not real comfortable with, properties of things as seen by people are >> both "out there" AND "in the head" of the observer. >> >> Nick >> >> >> >> Nicholas Thompson >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson >> >> >> >>> [Original Message] >>> From: Russell Standish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity >>> >> Coffee Group <[email protected]> >> >>> Date: 7/27/2006 12:16:09 AM >>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Friam Digest, Vol 37, Issue 47 >>> >>> Sort of like I say in my paper "The Importance of the Observer in >>> Science" you mean? Or in my book "Theory of Nothing". >>> >>> (Assuming I have correctly grokked your word "intensional"). >>> >>> On Wed, Jul 26, 2006 at 10:40:24AM -0400, Nicholas Thompson wrote: >>> >>>> Robert Holmes writes, >>>> >>>> "So if entropy is emergent and gravity is emergent and any other force >>>> mediated by a subatomic particle is emergent, just how useful is it to >>>> >> label >> >>>> something 'emergent' in this way? If the definition of emergence is so >>>> broad, how can we usefully use it?" >>>> >>>> SOOOOOOOOOO, this seems to suggest that emergence is one of those >>>> properties which are not brick wallk properties of the world except in >>>> >> so >> >>>> far as they are seen from a particular point of view. I.E, >>>> > intensional > >>>> properties. (sorry everybody). . But now, like Robert, I am >>>> >> beginning to >> >>>> wonder if all properties arent intensional. I mean that was sort of >>>> Einstein's point, wasnt it? I hate it when words I love and concepts >>>> > I > >>>> live by suddenly crumble in my hands. >>>> >>>> Rushing, >>>> >>>> Nick >>>> >>>> >>>> Nicholas Thompson >>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson >>>> >>>> >>> -- >>> *PS: A number of people ask me about the attachment to my email, which >>> is of type "application/pgp-signature". Don't worry, it is not a >>> virus. It is an electronic signature, that may be used to verify this >>> email came from me if you have PGP or GPG installed. Otherwise, you >>> may safely ignore this attachment. >>> >>> >>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> A/Prof Russell Standish Phone 8308 3119 (mobile) >>> Mathematics 0425 253119 (") >>> UNSW SYDNEY 2052 [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> Australia >>> >> http://parallel.hpc.unsw.edu.au/rks >> >>> International prefix +612, Interstate prefix 02 >>> >>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 05:02:33 +1000 >> From: Russell Standish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Friam Digest, Vol 37, Issue 47 >> To: Nicholas Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Cc: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group >> <[email protected]> >> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> On Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 12:45:06AM -0400, Nicholas Thompson wrote: >> >>> Russell, >>> >>> One of the first things I intend to do when I have retired in January is >>> read book with titles like yours, but until then, you will need to wave >>> excerpts at me or something. >>> >> That's why the paper might be up your alley. Also Chapter 1 of my book >> is also available at >> http://parallel.hpc.unsw.edu.au/rks/ToN-chapter1.pdf and is a precis >> of the main argument in the book. >> >> >>> Do you know anything about the New Realism of the 1910's at Harvard. A >>> group of james students wrote a New Realist Manifesto which seems to >>> > have > >>> been based on the Scottish Realism. Those students included Edward >>> > Holt, > >>> who spawned jj and ej gibson (of ecological psych fame) and E. C. >>> > Tolman, > >>> the inventor of cognitive behaviorism, and ultimately a traitor to the >>> cause in my opinion. >>> >>> The basic idea is that reality can be cut in various ways and different >>> observers SEE different cuts. All cuts are REAL properties of the >>> > object > >>> but also manifestations of the point of view of the observor. To use >>> > terms > >>> I am not real comfortable with, properties of things as seen by people >>> > are > >>> both "out there" AND "in the head" of the observer. >>> >> No, I hadn't heard of them, but the basic reasoning you mention sounds >> familiar. >> >> Cheers >> >> -- >> *PS: A number of people ask me about the attachment to my email, which >> is of type "application/pgp-signature". Don't worry, it is not a >> virus. It is an electronic signature, that may be used to verify this >> email came from me if you have PGP or GPG installed. Otherwise, you >> may safely ignore this attachment. >> >> >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> A/Prof Russell Standish Phone 8308 3119 (mobile) >> Mathematics 0425 253119 (") >> UNSW SYDNEY 2052 [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Australia >> > http://parallel.hpc.unsw.edu.au/rks > >> International prefix +612, Interstate prefix 02 >> >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> -------------- next part -------------- >> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... >> Name: not available >> Type: application/pgp-signature >> Size: 189 bytes >> Desc: not available >> Url : >> > /pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20060727/d03570fb/attachment-0001.b > in > >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 05:28:26 +1000 >> From: Russell Standish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Is it economics or biology >> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group >> <[email protected]> >> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> >> Like anything in the mainstream press, tantalisingly short on >> detail. I argued back in 1996 that Economics needs to take on an >> evolutionary outlook in a paper that was ultimately published in >> 2000. Indeed, I used the same Mashallian quote mentioned in the article: >> >> Standish, R.K. (2000) ``The Role of Innovation within Economics'', in >> Commerce, Complexity and Evolution, Barnett, W. et al (eds) (Cambridge >> University Press, New York), pp61-79. arXiv:nlin.AO/0007005 >> >> The reason why evolutionary economics has not taken off that much is >> that not enough bright minds are focussed on the problem, and >> economics is not the same as biology - excessive use of analogy >> actually clouds understanding. >> >> On Tue, Jul 25, 2006 at 06:40:29PM -0600, Tom Johnson wrote: >> >>> Of interest to the list, I hope. >>> >From the current issue of The Economist: >>> The Cambrian age of >>> >>> > economics<http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=7189617 > >>> Evolutionary economics is surviving, but not thriving >>> >>> http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=7189617 >>> >>> -- tj >>> >>> ========================================== >>> J. T. Johnson >>> Institute for Analytic Journalism -- Santa Fe, NM USA >>> www.analyticjournalism.com >>> 505.577.6482(c) 505.473.9646(h) >>> http://www.jtjohnson.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> >>> "You never change things by fighting the existing reality. >>> To change something, build a new model that makes the >>> existing model obsolete." >>> -- Buckminster Fuller >>> ========================================== >>> >>> ============================================================ >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >>> >> -- >> *PS: A number of people ask me about the attachment to my email, which >> is of type "application/pgp-signature". Don't worry, it is not a >> virus. It is an electronic signature, that may be used to verify this >> email came from me if you have PGP or GPG installed. Otherwise, you >> may safely ignore this attachment. >> >> >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> A/Prof Russell Standish Phone 8308 3119 (mobile) >> Mathematics 0425 253119 (") >> UNSW SYDNEY 2052 [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Australia >> > http://parallel.hpc.unsw.edu.au/rks > >> International prefix +612, Interstate prefix 02 >> >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 4 >> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 10:37:01 +0200 >> From: "Jochen Fromm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Subject: [FRIAM] Causality violations >> To: "'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'" >> <[email protected]> >> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> >> That's strange, in my Mozilla Thunderbird (IMAP) e-Mail client >> I can see the response from Russel before the original mail from >> Nick about "Friam Digest, Vol 37, Issue 47". Microsoft's Outlook >> displays it in the correct order: >> >> Dates in Outlook >> Russel's Mail Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 9:09 >> Nick's Mail Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 6:46 >> >> Dates in Thunderbird >> Nick's Mail Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 6:45 >> Russel's Mail Wed, Jul 26, 2006 at 21:02 >> >> Perhaps it has something to do with the time shift between >> USA and Australia. However, the message ordering in Thunderbird >> shows clearly a violation of causality: the effect is visible >> before the cause. Causality violations are one reason that makes >> distributed and complex systems so hard to understand, see >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAS-Group/message/1149 >> >> -J. >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 5 >> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 03:25:34 -0600 >> From: "Mike Oliker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Subject: [FRIAM] We meet at 7 pm >> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "ACG/Friam ABQ listserv" >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <[email protected]> >> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> complexity group / chaos club >> >> meeting time: 7 pm Thursday July 27 >> meeting place: Mike Oliker's (directions below) >> meeting topic: the article "Antichaos and Adaptation" by Stuart Kauffman. >> The article is >> available online at >> www.covchap.com/articles/antichaos.htm >> >> DIRECTIONS TO MIKE OLIKER'S HOUSE >> 8700 Canyon Run Rd. NE, ABQ, NM 87111 >> (505) 821-3407 >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ComplexityABQ/post?postID=Eh2Oqly5y1Z8x3inOsN > >> lqVIUuRDhqb0SWkjD5ORx1Ij4QirlIwdAaD-Z-o7wLXud1R2GzXbAU1EaHo0Wk4n1_N0> >> I-25 to San Mateo going East. >> Left onto Academy, also going East. >> Go past Wyoming and Wal-Mart's and turn just after St. Joseph Health Stop >> onto Moon. >> Take Moon one block south to Canyon Run. I'm at #8700 2.5 blocks up on >> > the > >> right, with a black mailbox >> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> > /pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20060727/8d3344f8/attachment-0001.h > tml > >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 6 >> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 12:00:52 +0200 >> From: Bill Eldridge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Causality violations >> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group >> <[email protected]> >> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >> >> >> I think it's simply that Russel has his computer date wrong (one day >> > early), > >> and while Outlook uses the local arrival time, Thunderbird uses the remote >> sender's time. >> >> Of course it's pretty absurd that in 2006 we still don't have computers on >> networks naturally synchronized time-wise by default. At a minimum to >> > within > >> a second or two. >> >> Jochen Fromm wrote: >> >>> That's strange, in my Mozilla Thunderbird (IMAP) e-Mail client >>> I can see the response from Russel before the original mail from >>> Nick about "Friam Digest, Vol 37, Issue 47". Microsoft's Outlook >>> displays it in the correct order: >>> >>> Dates in Outlook >>> Russel's Mail Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 9:09 >>> Nick's Mail Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 6:46 >>> >>> Dates in Thunderbird >>> Nick's Mail Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 6:45 >>> Russel's Mail Wed, Jul 26, 2006 at 21:02 >>> >>> Perhaps it has something to do with the time shift between >>> USA and Australia. However, the message ordering in Thunderbird >>> shows clearly a violation of causality: the effect is visible >>> before the cause. Causality violations are one reason that makes >>> distributed and complex systems so hard to understand, see >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAS-Group/message/1149 >>> >>> -J. >>> >>> >>> ============================================================ >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 7 >> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 13:11:17 +0200 >> From: "Jochen Fromm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Causality violations >> To: "'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'" >> <[email protected]> >> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> >> Yes, you are right. If I sort after the remote sender's time, Outlook >> shows the wrong message order, too. >> >> -J. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On >> > Behalf > >> Of Bill Eldridge >> Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 12:01 PM >> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Causality violations >> >> I think it's simply that Russel has his computer date wrong (one day >> > early), > >> and while Outlook uses the local arrival time, Thunderbird uses the remote >> sender's time. >> >> Of course it's pretty absurd that in 2006 we still don't have computers on >> networks naturally synchronized time-wise by default. At a minimum to >> > within > >> a second or two. >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 8 >> Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 21:38:06 +1000 >> From: Russell Standish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Causality violations >> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group >> <[email protected]> >> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> >> I do autosyncronise my computers clock with NTP. Where it all goes >> pear shaped is that I send mail from Linux running on VMWare running >> on top of Windows. Everytime windows hibernates, VMWare's clock gets >> screwed up. >> >> I have a menu item that connects to NTP and syncronise's Linux's >> clock, but that requires me to remember to run it, and it doesn't >> always work - even when I am online... >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 01:11:17PM +0200, Jochen Fromm wrote: >> >>> Yes, you are right. If I sort after the remote sender's time, Outlook >>> shows the wrong message order, too. >>> >>> -J. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On >>> > Behalf > >>> Of Bill Eldridge >>> Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 12:01 PM >>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group >>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Causality violations >>> >>> I think it's simply that Russel has his computer date wrong (one day >>> > early), > >>> and while Outlook uses the local arrival time, Thunderbird uses the >>> > remote > >>> sender's time. >>> >>> Of course it's pretty absurd that in 2006 we still don't have computers >>> > on > >>> networks naturally synchronized time-wise by default. At a minimum to >>> > within > >>> a second or two. >>> >>> >>> >>> ============================================================ >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >>> >> -- >> *PS: A number of people ask me about the attachment to my email, which >> is of type "application/pgp-signature". Don't worry, it is not a >> virus. It is an electronic signature, that may be used to verify this >> email came from me if you have PGP or GPG installed. Otherwise, you >> may safely ignore this attachment. >> >> >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> A/Prof Russell Standish Phone 8308 3119 (mobile) >> Mathematics 0425 253119 (") >> UNSW SYDNEY 2052 [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Australia >> > http://parallel.hpc.unsw.edu.au/rks > >> International prefix +612, Interstate prefix 02 >> >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Friam mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> >> >> End of Friam Digest, Vol 37, Issue 51 >> ************************************* >> > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > > ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
