All, Re: cause before effect: One night, just before midnight, I got three email messages from a friend in NZ which my mailer dutifully carried at the head of my list (most recent) for 24 hours.
Re: evolutionary economics: Has anyboyd read "Second Nature" by Haim Ofek. Not evolutionary economics in the sense that Russell was speaking, no doubt, but a heluva ride. I wish somebody else would read it and tell me what they think. Nick Nicholas Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson > [Original Message] > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[email protected]> > Date: 7/27/2006 7:38:30 AM > Subject: Friam Digest, Vol 37, Issue 51 > > Send Friam mailing list submissions to > [email protected] > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > You can reach the person managing the list at > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Friam digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Friam Digest, Vol 37, Issue 47 (Nicholas Thompson) > 2. Re: Friam Digest, Vol 37, Issue 47 (Russell Standish) > 3. Re: Is it economics or biology (Russell Standish) > 4. Causality violations (Jochen Fromm) > 5. We meet at 7 pm (Mike Oliker) > 6. Re: Causality violations (Bill Eldridge) > 7. Re: Causality violations (Jochen Fromm) > 8. Re: Causality violations (Russell Standish) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 00:45:06 -0400 > From: "Nicholas Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Friam Digest, Vol 37, Issue 47 > To: "Russell Standish" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "The Friday Morning > Applied Complexity Coffee Group" <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > Russell, > > One of the first things I intend to do when I have retired in January is > read book with titles like yours, but until then, you will need to wave > excerpts at me or something. > > Do you know anything about the New Realism of the 1910's at Harvard. A > group of james students wrote a New Realist Manifesto which seems to have > been based on the Scottish Realism. Those students included Edward Holt, > who spawned jj and ej gibson (of ecological psych fame) and E. C. Tolman, > the inventor of cognitive behaviorism, and ultimately a traitor to the > cause in my opinion. > > The basic idea is that reality can be cut in various ways and different > observers SEE different cuts. All cuts are REAL properties of the object > but also manifestations of the point of view of the observor. To use terms > I am not real comfortable with, properties of things as seen by people are > both "out there" AND "in the head" of the observer. > > Nick > > > > Nicholas Thompson > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson > > > > [Original Message] > > From: Russell Standish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity > Coffee Group <[email protected]> > > Date: 7/27/2006 12:16:09 AM > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Friam Digest, Vol 37, Issue 47 > > > > Sort of like I say in my paper "The Importance of the Observer in > > Science" you mean? Or in my book "Theory of Nothing". > > > > (Assuming I have correctly grokked your word "intensional"). > > > > On Wed, Jul 26, 2006 at 10:40:24AM -0400, Nicholas Thompson wrote: > > > Robert Holmes writes, > > > > > > "So if entropy is emergent and gravity is emergent and any other force > > > mediated by a subatomic particle is emergent, just how useful is it to > label > > > something 'emergent' in this way? If the definition of emergence is so > > > broad, how can we usefully use it?" > > > > > > SOOOOOOOOOO, this seems to suggest that emergence is one of those > > > properties which are not brick wallk properties of the world except in > so > > > far as they are seen from a particular point of view. I.E, intensional > > > properties. (sorry everybody). . But now, like Robert, I am > beginning to > > > wonder if all properties arent intensional. I mean that was sort of > > > Einstein's point, wasnt it? I hate it when words I love and concepts I > > > live by suddenly crumble in my hands. > > > > > > Rushing, > > > > > > Nick > > > > > > > > > Nicholas Thompson > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson > > > > > > > -- > > *PS: A number of people ask me about the attachment to my email, which > > is of type "application/pgp-signature". Don't worry, it is not a > > virus. It is an electronic signature, that may be used to verify this > > email came from me if you have PGP or GPG installed. Otherwise, you > > may safely ignore this attachment. > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > A/Prof Russell Standish Phone 8308 3119 (mobile) > > Mathematics 0425 253119 (") > > UNSW SYDNEY 2052 [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Australia > http://parallel.hpc.unsw.edu.au/rks > > International prefix +612, Interstate prefix 02 > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 05:02:33 +1000 > From: Russell Standish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Friam Digest, Vol 37, Issue 47 > To: Nicholas Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > On Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 12:45:06AM -0400, Nicholas Thompson wrote: > > Russell, > > > > One of the first things I intend to do when I have retired in January is > > read book with titles like yours, but until then, you will need to wave > > excerpts at me or something. > > That's why the paper might be up your alley. Also Chapter 1 of my book > is also available at > http://parallel.hpc.unsw.edu.au/rks/ToN-chapter1.pdf and is a precis > of the main argument in the book. > > > > > Do you know anything about the New Realism of the 1910's at Harvard. A > > group of james students wrote a New Realist Manifesto which seems to have > > been based on the Scottish Realism. Those students included Edward Holt, > > who spawned jj and ej gibson (of ecological psych fame) and E. C. Tolman, > > the inventor of cognitive behaviorism, and ultimately a traitor to the > > cause in my opinion. > > > > The basic idea is that reality can be cut in various ways and different > > observers SEE different cuts. All cuts are REAL properties of the object > > but also manifestations of the point of view of the observor. To use terms > > I am not real comfortable with, properties of things as seen by people are > > both "out there" AND "in the head" of the observer. > > No, I hadn't heard of them, but the basic reasoning you mention sounds > familiar. > > Cheers > > -- > *PS: A number of people ask me about the attachment to my email, which > is of type "application/pgp-signature". Don't worry, it is not a > virus. It is an electronic signature, that may be used to verify this > email came from me if you have PGP or GPG installed. Otherwise, you > may safely ignore this attachment. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > A/Prof Russell Standish Phone 8308 3119 (mobile) > Mathematics 0425 253119 (") > UNSW SYDNEY 2052 [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Australia http://parallel.hpc.unsw.edu.au/rks > International prefix +612, Interstate prefix 02 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: not available > Type: application/pgp-signature > Size: 189 bytes > Desc: not available > Url : /pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20060727/d03570fb/attachment-0001.b in > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 05:28:26 +1000 > From: Russell Standish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Is it economics or biology > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Like anything in the mainstream press, tantalisingly short on > detail. I argued back in 1996 that Economics needs to take on an > evolutionary outlook in a paper that was ultimately published in > 2000. Indeed, I used the same Mashallian quote mentioned in the article: > > Standish, R.K. (2000) ``The Role of Innovation within Economics'', in > Commerce, Complexity and Evolution, Barnett, W. et al (eds) (Cambridge > University Press, New York), pp61-79. arXiv:nlin.AO/0007005 > > The reason why evolutionary economics has not taken off that much is > that not enough bright minds are focussed on the problem, and > economics is not the same as biology - excessive use of analogy > actually clouds understanding. > > On Tue, Jul 25, 2006 at 06:40:29PM -0600, Tom Johnson wrote: > > Of interest to the list, I hope. > > >From the current issue of The Economist: > > The Cambrian age of > > economics<http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=7189617 > > > Evolutionary economics is surviving, but not thriving > > > > http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=7189617 > > > > -- tj > > > > ========================================== > > J. T. Johnson > > Institute for Analytic Journalism -- Santa Fe, NM USA > > www.analyticjournalism.com > > 505.577.6482(c) 505.473.9646(h) > > http://www.jtjohnson.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > "You never change things by fighting the existing reality. > > To change something, build a new model that makes the > > existing model obsolete." > > -- Buckminster Fuller > > ========================================== > > > ============================================================ > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > -- > *PS: A number of people ask me about the attachment to my email, which > is of type "application/pgp-signature". Don't worry, it is not a > virus. It is an electronic signature, that may be used to verify this > email came from me if you have PGP or GPG installed. Otherwise, you > may safely ignore this attachment. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > A/Prof Russell Standish Phone 8308 3119 (mobile) > Mathematics 0425 253119 (") > UNSW SYDNEY 2052 [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Australia http://parallel.hpc.unsw.edu.au/rks > International prefix +612, Interstate prefix 02 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 10:37:01 +0200 > From: "Jochen Fromm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: [FRIAM] Causality violations > To: "'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'" > <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > That's strange, in my Mozilla Thunderbird (IMAP) e-Mail client > I can see the response from Russel before the original mail from > Nick about "Friam Digest, Vol 37, Issue 47". Microsoft's Outlook > displays it in the correct order: > > Dates in Outlook > Russel's Mail Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 9:09 > Nick's Mail Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 6:46 > > Dates in Thunderbird > Nick's Mail Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 6:45 > Russel's Mail Wed, Jul 26, 2006 at 21:02 > > Perhaps it has something to do with the time shift between > USA and Australia. However, the message ordering in Thunderbird > shows clearly a violation of causality: the effect is visible > before the cause. Causality violations are one reason that makes > distributed and complex systems so hard to understand, see > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAS-Group/message/1149 > > -J. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 03:25:34 -0600 > From: "Mike Oliker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: [FRIAM] We meet at 7 pm > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "ACG/Friam ABQ listserv" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > complexity group / chaos club > > meeting time: 7 pm Thursday July 27 > meeting place: Mike Oliker's (directions below) > meeting topic: the article "Antichaos and Adaptation" by Stuart Kauffman. > The article is > available online at > www.covchap.com/articles/antichaos.htm > > DIRECTIONS TO MIKE OLIKER'S HOUSE > 8700 Canyon Run Rd. NE, ABQ, NM 87111 > (505) 821-3407 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ComplexityABQ/post?postID=Eh2Oqly5y1Z8x3inOsN > lqVIUuRDhqb0SWkjD5ORx1Ij4QirlIwdAaD-Z-o7wLXud1R2GzXbAU1EaHo0Wk4n1_N0> > I-25 to San Mateo going East. > Left onto Academy, also going East. > Go past Wyoming and Wal-Mart's and turn just after St. Joseph Health Stop > onto Moon. > Take Moon one block south to Canyon Run. I'm at #8700 2.5 blocks up on the > right, with a black mailbox > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: /pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20060727/8d3344f8/attachment-0001.h tml > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 12:00:52 +0200 > From: Bill Eldridge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Causality violations > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > > I think it's simply that Russel has his computer date wrong (one day early), > and while Outlook uses the local arrival time, Thunderbird uses the remote > sender's time. > > Of course it's pretty absurd that in 2006 we still don't have computers on > networks naturally synchronized time-wise by default. At a minimum to within > a second or two. > > Jochen Fromm wrote: > > That's strange, in my Mozilla Thunderbird (IMAP) e-Mail client > > I can see the response from Russel before the original mail from > > Nick about "Friam Digest, Vol 37, Issue 47". Microsoft's Outlook > > displays it in the correct order: > > > > Dates in Outlook > > Russel's Mail Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 9:09 > > Nick's Mail Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 6:46 > > > > Dates in Thunderbird > > Nick's Mail Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 6:45 > > Russel's Mail Wed, Jul 26, 2006 at 21:02 > > > > Perhaps it has something to do with the time shift between > > USA and Australia. However, the message ordering in Thunderbird > > shows clearly a violation of causality: the effect is visible > > before the cause. Causality violations are one reason that makes > > distributed and complex systems so hard to understand, see > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAS-Group/message/1149 > > > > -J. > > > > > > ============================================================ > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 13:11:17 +0200 > From: "Jochen Fromm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Causality violations > To: "'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'" > <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > Yes, you are right. If I sort after the remote sender's time, Outlook > shows the wrong message order, too. > > -J. > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > Of Bill Eldridge > Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 12:01 PM > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Causality violations > > I think it's simply that Russel has his computer date wrong (one day early), > and while Outlook uses the local arrival time, Thunderbird uses the remote > sender's time. > > Of course it's pretty absurd that in 2006 we still don't have computers on > networks naturally synchronized time-wise by default. At a minimum to within > a second or two. > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 21:38:06 +1000 > From: Russell Standish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Causality violations > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > I do autosyncronise my computers clock with NTP. Where it all goes > pear shaped is that I send mail from Linux running on VMWare running > on top of Windows. Everytime windows hibernates, VMWare's clock gets > screwed up. > > I have a menu item that connects to NTP and syncronise's Linux's > clock, but that requires me to remember to run it, and it doesn't > always work - even when I am online... > > > > On Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 01:11:17PM +0200, Jochen Fromm wrote: > > > > Yes, you are right. If I sort after the remote sender's time, Outlook > > shows the wrong message order, too. > > > > -J. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > > Of Bill Eldridge > > Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 12:01 PM > > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Causality violations > > > > I think it's simply that Russel has his computer date wrong (one day early), > > and while Outlook uses the local arrival time, Thunderbird uses the remote > > sender's time. > > > > Of course it's pretty absurd that in 2006 we still don't have computers on > > networks naturally synchronized time-wise by default. At a minimum to within > > a second or two. > > > > > > > > ============================================================ > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > -- > *PS: A number of people ask me about the attachment to my email, which > is of type "application/pgp-signature". Don't worry, it is not a > virus. It is an electronic signature, that may be used to verify this > email came from me if you have PGP or GPG installed. Otherwise, you > may safely ignore this attachment. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > A/Prof Russell Standish Phone 8308 3119 (mobile) > Mathematics 0425 253119 (") > UNSW SYDNEY 2052 [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Australia http://parallel.hpc.unsw.edu.au/rks > International prefix +612, Interstate prefix 02 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Friam mailing list > [email protected] > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > > End of Friam Digest, Vol 37, Issue 51 > ************************************* ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
