----- Original Message ----- From: "Nikolas Britton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Greg Barniskis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <freebsd-questions@freebsd.org>; "Nick Withers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 11:38 PM Subject: Re: Are hardware vendors starting to bail on FreeBSD ... ?
> On 7/27/06, Ted Mittelstaedt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Greg Barniskis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > > <freebsd-questions@freebsd.org>; "Nick Withers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Monday, July 24, 2006 11:59 AM > > Subject: Re: Are hardware vendors starting to bail on FreeBSD ... ? > > > > > > > Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Danial Thom" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > To: "Greg Barniskis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Nick Withers" > > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > > > > <freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 11:10 AM > > > > Subject: Re: Are hardware vendors starting to bail on FreeBSD ... ? > > > > > > > > > > > >> Burying your head in the sand is a common method > > > >> used by stupid people that have no answer to the > > > >> truth. I don't blame you; you guys don't want > > > >> your employers to know that you've wasted man > > > >> 1000s of their dollars because you don't know the > > > >> performance characteristics of the hardware > > > >> you've recommended. It must be thoroughly > > > >> embarrassing. > > > [snip] > > > > > > > I do agree with Danial that most USERS on this list are > > > > burying their heads in the sand on this issue. But I will > > > > point out that there isn't really any reason they shouldn't > > > > be. What the market wants is features, not speed. And > > > > that is what the FreeBSD developers are working on. > > > > > > Features over speed is generally the right equation, yes. > > > > > > But I think you're being too generous to Danial. The quote of his > > > above was in direct response to my assertion that many people refuse > > > to listen to him because he frequently engages in cheap demagogy[1]. > > > > > > > He does, but he is also right on this performance point. The truth > > can always be wrapped more palatably, but I think one of the differences > > between a system administrator and a user is that a user can't deal with > > the truth unless it's spoon fed in the nursery, an administrator should > > be approaching it as a professional, which means ignoring the > > irrelevant cheap demagogery and ignoring their own preconceptions of > > how things are "supposed" to work, and paying attention to the kernels of > > truth. > > > > I have to sort through giant piles of horseshit every time I look at the > > latest Cisco sales and marketing dreck, to find out what might be > > important in one of their new products, this isn't any different. And > > frankly I find the saccherine cloying marketingspeak to be far more > > disgusting and offensive then the lame kindergarden flames that > > Danial has so far been able to come up with. > > > > > His response? Another whole boatload of cheap demagogy, questioning > > > the intelligence, aptitude and moral character of anyone who doesn't > > > listen to him, by way of accusations that are wholly unsupported by > > > facts. I could probably rest my case right there, but I think his > > > perception (and yours) that people are not receptive to claims of > > > FreeBSD performance problems is quite simply false. > > > > > > Every time a performance question is brought up, I see a flurry of > > > calls for clarification and for the formulation of repeatable tests > > > which are generally agreed to be an accurate gauge of the problem. > > > > Calling for testing is pretty much a way of excusing the claim. People > > including Danial, have done the testing in the past, posted the results, > > then had armchair quarterbacks pick apart the test methodology claiming > > the tests were done wrong, thus irrelevant. So why even bother doing > > it anymore. > > > > But, you asked for it, you got it: > > > > Machine #1: Compaq 1600R, FBSD 6.1 Pentium 3 550Mhz > > > > freebsd-cvs# dmesg > > Copyright (c) 1992-2006 The FreeBSD Project. > > Copyright (c) 1979, 1980, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994 > > The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. > > FreeBSD 6.1-RELEASE #0: Thu Jun 1 17:23:18 PDT 2006 > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]:/usr/src/sys/i386/compile/GENERICNOUSBNOFIRE > > Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz quality 0 > > CPU: Pentium III/Pentium III Xeon/Celeron (548.54-MHz 686-class CPU) > > Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x673 Stepping = 3 > > > > Features=0x383fbff<FPU,VME,DE,PSE,TSC,MSR,PAE,MCE,CX8,APIC,SEP,MTRR,PGE,MCA, > > CMOV,PAT,PSE36,MMX,FXSR,SSE> > > real memory = 671088640 (640 MB) > > avail memory = 647458816 (617 MB) > > MPTable: <COMPAQ PROLIANT > > > ioapic0: Changing APIC ID to 8 > > ioapic0: Assuming intbase of 0 > > ioapic0 <Version 1.1> irqs 0-34 on motherboard > > kbd1 at kbdmux0 > > cpu0 on motherboard > > pcib0: <MPTable Host-PCI bridge> pcibus 0 on motherboard > > pci0: <PCI bus> on pcib0 > > pci0: <display, VGA> at device 11.0 (no driver attached) > > pcib1: <MPTable PCI-PCI bridge> at device 13.0 on pci0 > > pci1: <PCI bus> on pcib1 > > tl0: <Compaq Netelligent 10/100 Proliant> port 0x3800-0x380f irq 30 at > > device 7.0 on pci1 > > miibus0: <MII bus> on tl0 > > nsphy0: <DP83840 10/100 media interface> on miibus0 > > nsphy0: 10baseT, 10baseT-FDX, 100baseTX, 100baseTX-FDX, auto > > tlphy0: <ThunderLAN 10baseT media interface> on miibus0 > > tlphy0: 10base2/BNC, 10base5/AUI > > tl0: Ethernet address: 00:50:8b:f1:82:17 > > sym0: <875> port 0x3000-0x30ff mem > > 0xc6ffdf00-0xc6ffdfff,0xc6fff000-0xc6ffffff irq 23 at device 9.0 on pci1 > > sym0: No NVRAM, ID 7, Fast-20, SE, parity checking > > sym0: [GIANT-LOCKED] > > sym1: <875> port 0x3400-0x34ff mem > > 0xc6ffde00-0xc6ffdeff,0xc6ffe000-0xc6ffefff irq 22 at device 9.1 on pci1 > > sym1: No NVRAM, ID 7, Fast-20, SE, parity checking > > sym1: [GIANT-LOCKED] > > pci0: <base peripheral> at device 14.0 (no driver attached) > > ida0: <Compaq Smart Array 431 controller> port 0x2000-0x20ff mem > > 0xc6efe000-0xc6efefff irq 20 at device 16.0 on pci0 > > ida0: [GIANT-LOCKED] > > ida0: drives=1 firm_rev=1.22 > > idad0: <Compaq Logical Drive> on ida0 > > idad0: 34719MB (71106240 sectors), blocksize=512 > > pci0: <serial bus, USB> at device 18.0 (no driver attached) > > isab0: <PCI-ISA bridge> at device 20.0 on pci0 > > isa0: <ISA bus> on isab0 > > atapci0: <Intel PIIX4 UDMA33 controller> port > > 0x1f0-0x1f7,0x3f6,0x170-0x177,0x376,0xf100-0xf10f at device 20.1 on pci0 > > ata0: <ATA channel 0> on atapci0 > > ata1: <ATA channel 1> on atapci0 > > pci0: <serial bus, USB> at device 20.2 (no driver attached) > > pci0: <bridge> at device 20.3 (no driver attached) > > eisa0: <EISA bus> on motherboard > > mainboard0: <CPQ0689 (System Board)> on eisa0 slot 0 > > pmtimer0 on isa0 > > orm0: <ISA Option ROMs> at iomem > > 0xc0000-0xc7fff,0xc8000-0xcbfff,0xe8000-0xedfff,0xee000-0xeffff on isa0 > > atkbdc0: <Keyboard controller (i8042)> at port 0x60,0x64 on isa0 > > atkbd0: <AT Keyboard> irq 1 on atkbdc0 > > kbd0 at atkbd0 > > atkbd0: [GIANT-LOCKED] > > psm0: <PS/2 Mouse> irq 12 on atkbdc0 > > psm0: [GIANT-LOCKED] > > psm0: model Generic PS/2 mouse, device ID 0 > > fdc0: <Enhanced floppy controller> at port 0x3f0-0x3f5,0x3f7 irq 6 drq 2 on > > isa0 > > fdc0: [FAST] > > fd0: <1440-KB 3.5" drive> on fdc0 drive 0 > > ppc0: <Parallel port> at port 0x3bc-0x3c3 irq 7 on isa0 > > ppc0: Generic chipset (NIBBLE-only) in COMPATIBLE mode > > ppbus0: <Parallel port bus> on ppc0 > > plip0: <PLIP network interface> on ppbus0 > > lpt0: <Printer> on ppbus0 > > lpt0: Interrupt-driven port > > ppi0: <Parallel I/O> on ppbus0 > > sc0: <System console> at flags 0x100 on isa0 > > sc0: VGA <16 virtual consoles, flags=0x300> > > sio0 at port 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 flags 0x10 on isa0 > > sio0: type 16550A > > sio1 at port 0x2f8-0x2ff irq 3 on isa0 > > sio1: type 16550A > > vga0: <Generic ISA VGA> at port 0x3c0-0x3df iomem 0xa0000-0xbffff on isa0 > > Timecounter "TSC" frequency 548543576 Hz quality 800 > > Timecounters tick every 1.000 msec > > Waiting 5 seconds for SCSI devices to settle > > acd0: CDROM <COMPAQ CDR-8435/0013> at ata0-master PIO4 > > sa0 at sym1 bus 0 target 6 lun 0 > > sa0: <COMPAQ SDX-400C 3.0B> Removable Sequential Access SCSI-2 device > > sa0: 40.000MB/s transfers (20.000MHz, offset 7, 16bit) > > Trying to mount root from ufs:/dev/idad0s1a > > ipfw2 (+ipv6) initialized, divert loadable, rule-based forwarding disabled, > > default to deny, logging disabled > > tl0: link state changed to UP > > freebsd-cvs# > > freebsd-cvs# pwd > > /root > > freebsd-cvs# bonnie > > File './Bonnie.81888', size: 104857600 > > Writing with putc()...done > > Rewriting...done > > Writing intelligently...done > > Reading with getc()...done > > Reading intelligently...done > > Seeker 1...Seeker 2...Seeker 3...start 'em...done...done...done... > > -------Sequential Output-------- ---Sequential > > Input-- --Random-- > > -Per Char- --Block--- -Rewrite-- -Per > > Char- --Block--- --Seeks--- > > Machine MB K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU /sec > > %CPU > > 100 7745 39.4 7748 12.0 8808 15.3 23303 98.3 151922 99.1 > > 12579.6 99.1 > > freebsd-cvs# > > > > Machine #2: Compaq 1600R, FBSD 4.11 Pentium 3 550Mhz > > > > billmax# dmesg > > Copyright (c) 1992-2005 The FreeBSD Project. > > Copyright (c) 1979, 1980, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994 > > The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. > > FreeBSD 4.11-RELEASE #0: Mon Nov 14 11:25:24 PST 2005 > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]:/usr/src/sys/compile/BILLMAX > > Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz > > CPU: Pentium II/Pentium II Xeon/Celeron (448.95-MHz 686-class CPU) > > Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x652 Stepping = 2 > > > > Features=0x183fbff<FPU,VME,DE,PSE,TSC,MSR,PAE,MCE,CX8,APIC,SEP,MTRR,PGE,MCA, > > CMOV,PAT,PSE36,MMX,FXSR> > > real memory = 536870912 (524288K bytes) > > avail memory = 518692864 (506536K bytes) > > Changing APIC ID for IO APIC #0 from 0 to 8 on chip > > Programming 35 pins in IOAPIC #0 > > IOAPIC #0 intpin 2 -> irq 0 > > FreeBSD/SMP: Multiprocessor motherboard: 2 CPUs > > cpu0 (BSP): apic id: 1, version: 0x00040011, at 0xfee00000 > > cpu1 (AP): apic id: 0, version: 0x00040011, at 0xfee00000 > > io0 (APIC): apic id: 8, version: 0x00220011, at 0xfec00000 > > Preloaded elf kernel "kernel" at 0xc039c000. > > Pentium Pro MTRR support enabled > > md0: Malloc disk > > npx0: <math processor> on motherboard > > npx0: INT 16 interface > > pcib0: <Intel 82443BX host to PCI bridge (AGP disabled)> on motherboard > > pci0: <PCI bus> on pcib0 > > pci0: <Cirrus Logic GD5446 SVGA controller> at 11.0 > > pcib1: <DEC 21150 PCI-PCI bridge> at device 13.0 on pci0 > > pci1: <PCI bus> on pcib1 > > tl0: <Compaq Netelligent 10/100 Proliant> port 0x2800-0x280f mem > > 0xc6ef9df0-0xc6ef9dff irq 9 at device 7.0 on pci1 > > tl0: Ethernet address: 00:08:c7:9f:92:77 > > miibus0: <MII bus> on tl0 > > nsphy0: <DP83840 10/100 media interface> on miibus0 > > nsphy0: 10baseT, 10baseT-FDX, 100baseTX, 100baseTX-FDX, auto > > tlphy0: <ThunderLAN 10baseT media interface> on miibus0 > > tlphy0: 10base2/BNC, 10base5/AUI > > sym0: <875> port 0x2000-0x20ff mem > > 0xc6efb000-0xc6efbfff,0xc6ef9f00-0xc6ef9fff irq 10 at device 9.0 on pci1 > > sym0: No NVRAM, ID 7, Fast-20, SE, parity checking > > sym1: <875> port 0x2400-0x24ff mem > > 0xc6efa000-0xc6efafff,0xc6ef9e00-0xc6ef9eff irq 11 at device 9.1 on pci1 > > sym1: No NVRAM, ID 7, Fast-20, SE, parity checking > > pci1: <Matrox MGA Millennium 2064W graphics accelerator> at 13.0 irq 5 > > pci0: <unknown card> (vendor=0x0e11, dev=0xa0f0) at 14.0 > > pcib2: <IBM 82351 PCI-PCI bridge> at device 18.0 on pci0 > > pci2: <PCI bus> on pcib2 > > ida0: <Compaq SMART-2SL array controller> port 0x3000-0x30ff mem > > 0xb8000000-0xbfffffff,0xc6ffff00-0xc6ffffff irq 15 at device 0.0 on pci2 > > ida0: drives=1 firm_rev=4.44 > > idad0: <Compaq Logical Drive> on ida0 > > idad0: 26029MB (53309280 sectors), blocksize=512 > > isab0: <Intel 82371AB PCI to ISA bridge> at device 20.0 on pci0 > > isa0: <ISA bus> on isab0 > > atapci0: <Intel PIIX4 ATA33 controller> port 0xf100-0xf10f at device 20.1 on > > pci0 > > ata0: at 0x1f0 irq 14 on atapci0 > > ata1: at 0x170 irq 15 on atapci0 > > uhci0: <Intel 82371AB/EB (PIIX4) USB controller> irq 0 at device 20.2 on > > pci0 > > uhci0: Could not map ports > > device_probe_and_attach: uhci0 attach returned 6 > > piix0: <Intel 82371AB Power management controller> at device 20.3 on pci0 > > eisa0: <EISA bus> on motherboard > > mainboard0: <CPQ0689 (System Board)> on eisa0 slot 0 > > orm0: <Option ROMs> at iomem > > 0xc0000-0xc7fff,0xc8000-0xcbfff,0xe8000-0xedfff,0xee000-0xeffff on isa0 > > pmtimer0 on isa0 > > fdc0: <NEC 72065B or clone> at port 0x3f0-0x3f5,0x3f7 irq 6 drq 2 on isa0 > > fdc0: FIFO enabled, 8 bytes threshold > > fd0: <1440-KB 3.5" drive> on fdc0 drive 0 > > atkbdc0: <Keyboard controller (i8042)> at port 0x60,0x64 on isa0 > > atkbd0: <AT Keyboard> flags 0x1 irq 1 on atkbdc0 > > kbd0 at atkbd0 > > psm0: <PS/2 Mouse> irq 12 on atkbdc0 > > psm0: model Generic PS/2 mouse, device ID 0 > > vga0: <Generic ISA VGA> at port 0x3c0-0x3df iomem 0xa0000-0xbffff on isa0 > > sc0: <System console> at flags 0x100 on isa0 > > sc0: VGA <16 virtual consoles, flags=0x300> > > sio0 at port 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 flags 0x10 on isa0 > > sio0: type 16550A > > sio1 at port 0x2f8-0x2ff irq 3 on isa0 > > sio1: type 16550A > > APIC_IO: Testing 8254 interrupt delivery > > APIC_IO: routing 8254 via IOAPIC #0 intpin 2 > > SMP: AP CPU #1 Launched! > > acd0: CDROM <CD-ROM CDU701-Q> at ata0-master PIO4 > > Waiting 15 seconds for SCSI devices to settle > > sa0 at sym0 bus 0 target 6 lun 0 > > sa0: <HP C1537A L708> Removable Sequential Access SCSI-2 device > > sa0: 10.000MB/s transfers (10.000MHz, offset 16) > > Mounting root from ufs:/dev/idad0s1a > > IP packet filtering initialized, divert disabled, rule-based forwarding > > enabled, default to deny, logging disabled > > (sa0:sym0:0:6:0): WRITE FILEMARKS. CDB: 10 0 0 0 2 0 > > (sa0:sym0:0:6:0): Deferred Error: MEDIUM ERROR asc:3b,0 > > (sa0:sym0:0:6:0): Sequential positioning error > > billmax# > > billmax# bonnie > > File './Bonnie.12377', size: 104857600 > > Writing with putc()...done > > Rewriting...done > > Writing intelligently...done > > Reading with getc()...done > > Reading intelligently...done > > Seeker 1...Seeker 2...Seeker 3...start 'em...done...done...done... > > -------Sequential Output-------- ---Sequential > > Input-- --Random-- > > -Per Char- --Block--- -Rewrite-- -Per > > Char- --Block--- --Seeks--- > > Machine MB K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU /sec > > %CPU > > 100 6191 27.7 6202 8.6 7269 13.6 14247 100.0 122401 99.8 > > 12267.0 199.0 > > billmax# > > > > Notice on the FASTER machine, running FreeBSD 6.1, it runs CPU at 39.4 > > percent. The SLOWER > > machine, running FreeBSD 4.11, runs CPU at 27%. Granted, disk I/O is a bit > > faster on the newer version > > of FreeBSD. But of course, it should be - the disk driver and OS is newer. > > The dirty little secret is that > > while you might get that higher throughput speed on the disk, it takes a LOT > > higher CPU percentage, > > EVEN ON a machine that's 100Mhz faster. > > > > Sure, if you got gigahertz to play with - so what? But, this matters a > > great deal on older hardware > > where you DON'T got that. > > > > Now, granted this is nothing more than seat of the pants testing, it isn't a > > controlled test. > > But it is very typical of the results that people get when they try > > performance testing. > > > > Your results on CPU usage are useless. Besides the difference in CPU > speed explain how a faster CPU speed would increase CPU usage. > there is at least one more major problem you missed, the 4.11 > system is SMP and the 6.1 system is not. anyways... > bonnie isn't multithreaded, only one CPU is going to have it. But it is true the systems are different. That is why I said the testing wasn't going to be more useful than seat-of-the-pants. > Here's what I'd like to know. What's your problem Danial? After two > years of trolling I still don't know what the root of your complaint > is. I'm willing to discuss this (as I've always been) provided you, > and everyone else, can stay civil. I would also like to run some of > these tests you keep referring to. > He's referred to network throughput tests. As in you have a FBSD system with 2 nics, and you pass a lot of data from 1 nic to the other. Not a very easy test for most people to duplicate, I'm afraid. Ted _______________________________________________ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
