On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 1:10 PM, Alex Harui <aha...@adobe.com> wrote:
> I've never used GitHub. It doesn't have a way to monitor commits that > couldn't send a notification to flex-commits@? > It may be possible. I'm not sure. What bothers me more than that is using outside infrastructure to host development. I know I've seen that idea frowned upon in the past, though I can't recall all the problems that were raised. Cyrill linked to the process used by Cordova. I don't know how much the Cordova mentors have been involved in defining that process nor how much the Incubator PMC or Apache Board have been involved in it. If that process has been blessed by some people here at the ASF then perhaps it would work for us. > But I have been trying to understand how > much of the Apache Way is tied to Infra. As you know, I've been > complaining > about centralized Infra for the whole time we've been in incubation. > Yes, and I don't necessarily disagree with you on that. I've watched all the discussions and tried to understand both sides. I think the Apache Way is tied to infra to the extent that Apache believes certain things need to be hosted within the org's infrastructure to be able to ensure proper legal provenance. I've always thought source control was one of those things. I've also assumed that meant source control for development, not just releases. We want to know where the code came from. We want to know that it was committed by someone with a proper CLA and we want to know that that person had the appropriate rights to be able to commit it. Honestly, I'm not sure whether we can get that provenance from a github workflow or not. I know that in my watching of discussions on the board@and members@lists that there have been some serious concerns raised about doing that type of thing. That's why I'm a bit surprised to find Cordova's workflow making use of github like they are and I'd be very interested in knowing whether their process has the "blessing" of the ASF or if they've somehow managed to escape notice. So what are really the minimum requirements of the Apache Way? For sure the > mailing lists and voting and the processes for earning committer-hood. And > that source code for releases and release packages are on Apache hardware. > I've actually thought the requirements for earning committer-hood had some flexibility. I know I've been part of multiple projects that have handled that different ways. But as I understand it, source code for releases doesn't go far enough. We need to host the source code for development as well. I don't think anyone has a problem with accepting patches from github, but my interpretation is that the org really doesn't want committers to be doing large amounts of development "offsite" and bring it in that way. Again, this is my interpretation of the discussions I've seen. I could be completely wrong. Perhaps someone could create a workflow for us (somewhat like Cordova's) and we could bring it to general@ for discussion. That would be the best way to learn what sorts of things are acceptable and frowned upon. But we'd also need to be prepared to interpret conflicting opinions and make our own way at the end of it. > But I'd > appreciate your thoughts on how to approach Infra and/or how to help Apache > change. > Infra's a hard group to break into. Some of that I understand as their responsibility is quite huge. And quite honestly, I've learned quite a bit about network security and software quality, etc. from watching their discussions. But some of it also has to do with the personalities of those involved. It's hard fro me to know where to "kick against the goads" or go with the flow. If I had time to really contribute to infra maybe I could have more of a voice. Unfortunately, my involvement at Apache is wide and shallow and I've been trying to figure out how to make it narrower and deeper. So change happens at the board and members level. I can guarantee you that once we become a TLP some members of our PMC will be nominated for membership and then our group will have a greater voice. That's why I say it wont' happen overnight, so my best advice, given what we know now, is to try hard to get work done with the tools and infra we have now -- prove ourselves, then we can go about trying to promote change. Greg
