Lol. On Sunday, 12 January 2025 at 07:56:04 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote:
> Oh, I can show you flibber. > > On Sat, Jan 11, 2025 at 6:52 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < > everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote: > >> @Terren. The very fact that you just make it a word game proves that you >> are not conscious of consciousness. I can show you qualia, but you cannot >> show me flibber. Try again! >> >> On Saturday, 11 January 2025 at 01:21:46 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >> >>> I'll counter that with *my* proof that *flibber is the only thing that >>> exists*: >>> 1. Flibber = Blammo = Existence >>> 2. To Exist means to have Blammo (you are not aware of this) >>> 3. A Blammo is a Flibber (obviously) >>> 4. So how can something Exist if doesn't have any Blammo? >>> 5. And what is a Blammo if not a Flibber? >>> >>> It goes without saying then that anything that's not a Flibber does not >>> Exist. QED >>> >>> On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 5:52 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < >>> everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote: >>> >>>> @Terren. Is not a matter of proving. Is a matter of you becoming >>>> conscious of consciousness. As of yet, you have no idea what the word >>>> "qualia" means. If you would have known, you would have known that qualia >>>> = >>>> form = meaning = existence. You are not aware of the fact that to exist >>>> means to have form. And what a form is is a quality. How else can >>>> something >>>> exists if it doesn't have any form ? And what is a form if not a quality ? >>>> >>>> On Saturday, 11 January 2025 at 00:49:16 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>>> >>>>> Try to keep up. You cannot prove that only qualia exists. All you've >>>>> offered so far is a tautology. >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 5:17 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < >>>>> everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> @Terren. So you say that I cannot prove that only existence exists ? >>>>>> Then what else exists ? Inexistence ? >>>>>> >>>>>> On Friday, 10 January 2025 at 23:16:04 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm not asking you to explain existence. I'm saying you cannot prove >>>>>>> your claim that the only thing that *can* exist is qualia. And you >>>>>>> cannot prove that with a tautology. But you knew that, right? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 3:33 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < >>>>>>> everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> @Terren. Not a truism. A tautology. 1=1. Of course. What else would >>>>>>>> you want? How do you expect to explain existence using something >>>>>>>> outside of >>>>>>>> itself ? Is illogical. Existence exists. 1=1. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Quality = form = meaning. Quality looks the way it does because of >>>>>>>> the meaning that it does. And meaning is the way no-thing understands >>>>>>>> itself when it looks-back-at-itself. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Friday, 10 January 2025 at 22:12:36 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So in short, your proof is: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 1. To exist means to have quality >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 1. Only qualia have quality >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Got it. One problem though - you don't define "quality". So your >>>>>>>>> proof is just a truism: "Qualia are all that exist because only >>>>>>>>> qualia >>>>>>>>> exist". >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You have to define "quality" in a way that does not invoke >>>>>>>>> "existence" or "qualia". Otherwise, your proof is something a sub-100 >>>>>>>>> IQ >>>>>>>>> person might come up with. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 2:44 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List >>>>>>>>> <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> @Terren. Information doesn't exist. "Information" is just an idea >>>>>>>>>> in consciousness. >>>>>>>>>> Organ doesn't exist. "Organ" is just an idea in consciousness. >>>>>>>>>> Brain doesn't exist. "Brain" is just an idea in consciousness. >>>>>>>>>> Things don't exist. "Things" is just an idea in consciousness. >>>>>>>>>> See my other topic about PHYSICAL WOOOORLD >>>>>>>>>> EXIIIIISISISISTTTT!!!!! See it here for convenience: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE9a2h5ZRqA >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> If qualia are about an ObJeCtIvE reality, what is the oBjEcTiVe >>>>>>>>>> reality that those qualia refer to ? Is it about: >>>>>>>>>> Bart Simpson bouncing? >>>>>>>>>> Rotating pirate ship? >>>>>>>>>> That isn't my receipt? >>>>>>>>>> Lobsters in motion? >>>>>>>>>> That is embarrassing? >>>>>>>>>> Lactates in pharmacy? >>>>>>>>>> Baptism piracy? >>>>>>>>>> That isn't mercy? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Of course you can prove that qualia are all there is. >>>>>>>>>> Trolololololololololol. Big deal. Is the most trivial thing in the >>>>>>>>>> world. >>>>>>>>>> Qualia are all that exists because "existence" is synonymous with >>>>>>>>>> "quality". To exist means to have quality. If you have no quality >>>>>>>>>> you have >>>>>>>>>> no form, as such you are no-thing. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 50% of people are below 100. So 50% of population are >>>>>>>>>> scientifically proven retards. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Friday, 10 January 2025 at 17:43:06 UTC+2 Terren Suydam wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> As John Clark (a physicalist true believer) puts it, the brute >>>>>>>>>>> fact or assumption is that consciousness is how it feels when data >>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>> processed. In this account, consciousness is the experience of >>>>>>>>>>> information >>>>>>>>>>> - the information from our sensory organs as it is processed in our >>>>>>>>>>> brains. >>>>>>>>>>> So if one accepts that theory of reality, qualia exist only as a >>>>>>>>>>> signal >>>>>>>>>>> that refers to things that exist independently of an individual's >>>>>>>>>>> consciousness. That's what makes it epistemological. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> That version is not what I subscribe to, and I'm not trying to >>>>>>>>>>> convince you that's the correct account. I'm only saying, there's >>>>>>>>>>> no way, >>>>>>>>>>> not even in principle, to prove that that's the Truth of what the >>>>>>>>>>> ultimate >>>>>>>>>>> ontology is. The same goes for your account, which is that >>>>>>>>>>> consciousness >>>>>>>>>>> and qualia are all that exists. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> PS. By definition, an IQ of 100 is the median. So "most people" >>>>>>>>>>> have an IQ right around 100. And I don't mean to suggest that >>>>>>>>>>> because most >>>>>>>>>>> people take the physicalist account, that makes it more likely to >>>>>>>>>>> be true. >>>>>>>>>>> I'm saying, if you're talking about your alternative, minority >>>>>>>>>>> theory of >>>>>>>>>>> reality as if it's fact, then that means you better be able to >>>>>>>>>>> prove it. *And >>>>>>>>>>> you can't* *- nobody can*, just as nobody can prove physicalism >>>>>>>>>>> is true. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 10, 2025 at 3:39 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything >>>>>>>>>>> List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> @Terren. How can qualia have epistemological status when it >>>>>>>>>>>> exists ? Exists = ontologic. You seem very confused regarding the >>>>>>>>>>>> meaning >>>>>>>>>>>> of words. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Also, "most people" have IQ below 100. This is close to >>>>>>>>>>>> monkey-level. How is that a criteria on which to decide truth ? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Also, define "energy"! Define "matter"! >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, 7 January 2025 at 17:48:01 UTC+2 Terren Suydam >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> In your theory, the quale has ontological status, ok. In >>>>>>>>>>>>> physicalism (what most people assume), qualia have >>>>>>>>>>>>> epistemological status. >>>>>>>>>>>>> IOW, qualia is a form of information about something that exists >>>>>>>>>>>>> independently of our individual consciousness. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> In your theory, consciousness is the fundamental ontology. In >>>>>>>>>>>>> physicalism, matter & energy is the fundamental ontology. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Deciding what is the fundamental ontology is a metaphysical >>>>>>>>>>>>> decision. It's an assumption or belief from which other things >>>>>>>>>>>>> follow. But >>>>>>>>>>>>> the truth of what is the fundamental ontology cannot be proven. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jan 7, 2025 at 5:00 AM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything >>>>>>>>>>>>> List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> @Terren. Yes. What do you mean by "thing" ? The chair that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> you see in front of you ? But that is just a quale in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> consciousness. So >>>>>>>>>>>>>> what do you mean by "thing" ? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, 7 January 2025 at 02:28:05 UTC+2 Terren Suydam >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 🙄 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 6, 2025 at 7:19 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> List <everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> @Terren. What thing ? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, 7 January 2025 at 00:33:55 UTC+2 Terren Suydam >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I would venture that the common sense notion of existence >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> means that a thing that exists has been instantiated. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>>> it, send an email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion visit >>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/d0ad42e4-836f-47b2-9738-a045aa971470n%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/d0ad42e4-836f-47b2-9738-a045aa971470n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>>> send an email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To view this discussion visit >>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/a8f3adf9-ae05-443c-8aeb-081807fd1ed9n%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/a8f3adf9-ae05-443c-8aeb-081807fd1ed9n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>> send an email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> To view this discussion visit >>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/5f52c2df-dfed-4224-8a56-921bc1c74d44n%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/5f52c2df-dfed-4224-8a56-921bc1c74d44n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> >>>>> To view this discussion visit >>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/efb89a4e-4c5f-406d-8337-14f10d35a88en%40googlegroups.com >>>>>> >>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/efb89a4e-4c5f-406d-8337-14f10d35a88en%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>> . >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com. >>>> >>> To view this discussion visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/910ad8a7-012b-42f0-9bf3-ab5dae87aecfn%40googlegroups.com >>>> >>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/910ad8a7-012b-42f0-9bf3-ab5dae87aecfn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>> . >>>> >>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com. >> > To view this discussion visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/4f108bc5-a14f-4705-bf7d-26b062da6e90n%40googlegroups.com >> >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/4f108bc5-a14f-4705-bf7d-26b062da6e90n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/be4be060-35ab-4cb5-a950-adf2ebe16048n%40googlegroups.com.
