> On 4 Aug 2020, at 23:43, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > On 8/4/2020 9:53 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 31 Jul 2020, at 16:32, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List >>> <[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 7/31/2020 4:09 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>>> >>>> Equality means, at least in my mind in this discussion, equality of right. >>>> It is the idea that everyone obeys to the law, especially at the top who >>>> has to give the example. It means same amount of money for the same amount >>>> of work, independently of the genre, colour skin, etc. >>>> >>>> It does not mean “freedom of religion” which is an apparently nice idea, >>>> but in practice it is the legalisation of moral harassment, the >>>> legalisation of lies, etc. In fact, freedom of religion is almost the same >>>> as the interdiction to use reason in theology, and is the main trick of >>>> most tyrants and pressure groups. >>>> >>>> Equality of right is what should normally prevent the “extremely equal” >>>> setting, when we are asked to forget how different we really are. >>> >>> As I would expect of a logician, you avoid the operational meanings. >> >> I am not sure. Same salary, same laws, same treatment, same obligation >> (modulo the biological differences of course), all this seems rather >> operational to me. You forget that my expertise in logic is in computer >> science, where operational semantics abound. >> >> >> >> >> >>> A right, must be something one has the power to do or refrain from doing, >>> and society defends this choice. >> >> OK. >> >> >> >> >>> So it is quite different from "everyone obeys the same law" and "gets the >>> same pay for the same amount of work”. >> >> Honestly, you loss me. In a democratic society, we vote for laws as a mean >> to protect our right and agreed on obligation. >> >> >> >> >>> In many cases it is a freedom from laws. >> >> What? >> >> The laws, made by people representing the collectivity, in a normal healthy >> state (no leaks in the separated powers) provides the freedom from the laws >> of the sternest and more violent. > > You must not be familiar with laws in theocratic states, especially some > Islamic states.
I was talking about “normal healthy *democratic* state, with religion:science completely separated from the state. A theocratic state in your sense is not related to this. If theocratic state can only exist when theology has been taken out of science. That was the goal. That was the reason why christians, after 529 have persecuted the scientist, especially the theologian (called “pagan”, “heretic”, “atheists”, etc.). > The majority in a society does not necessarily tolerate any deviation from > what it considers a "health state”. But it does, with time, unless the state is so unhealthy that its democratic rules are no more followed. By “healthy democracy" I meant a democracy where the threshold of dishonesty is low. > Almost all states in the U.S. used to have laws against homosexual relations… But people evolved, and in a democracy, enough people can change their mind, and the laws. > and even against a lot of heterosexual acts. Most in the south had laws > against miscegenation. And these were democratically supported by wide > majorities. That is the intrinsic weakness of democracies, or even anything alive. It can die, by lack of vigilance, stubborn decision, war, natural disasters, etc. Sometimes people kill a democracy by voting for a “want-to-be-dictator”, by his demagogy, or by a lack of education etc. There are no universal medication against this, but we can learn by our errors, propose new laws, etc. >> >> >> >> >>> I think that was the great advance of the Enlightenment, the rejection of >>> the medieval, theocratic idea that there was a only one (holy) way to do >>> everything and the idea of sin extended into every facet of life, even into >>> thought. >> >> It is the understanding of science, or of what science is. >> >> But unfortunately the “theocratic” stupidity, that you allude to, is still >> tolerated in theology, which in that case makes suspect that people have not >> yet really understood what science is, probably to be able to keep the >> illusion of protect themselves through lies or fake knowledge. >> >> The Ayatollah, the popes, the bishops, the priest, the Brothers, and the >> literary philosophers can thank the gnostic atheists to defend their job and >> curriculum. >> >> The motto is “you will not apply reason in the field made of what we cannot >> talk about”. >> >> And that seems reasonable, but it all depends of what is the theory that you >> postulate. Wit mechanism, science can study its limitation, and can observe >> structure beyond its means of justification, like the degrees of >> unsolvability. With Mechanism, mathematical logic and mathematics becomes >> the Hubble telescope of elementary classical mathematical theology. >> >> The enlightenment in a open and positive interpretation of what you said, >> has given the democracy and the US constitution, and that is a real progress >> in the human right. But old and young democracies are fragile, and the human >> sciences are nowhere, which is reassuring after the Shoa and Rwanda. You >> need to be cynical to say that the human science are OK after that. >> >> I could argue that democracy is what nature does all the time, as she >> selects also what remains from infinite oscillation between security and >> liberty. Liberty is Turing universalness, security is total-ness, automaton. >> It is a bit going from []p to ([]p & p), back and forth, in between reason >> and intuition. >> >> When theology will come back to the faculty of science, the literal reading >> of the sacred texts will be relegated in between the horoscopes and the >> necrology in the Sunday magazine, and, and that is the main point, it will >> become useless as demagogical tools by Tyrans to keep “theocratic” power. >> >> A popular mechanist slogan (years 2201): “you can rape and torture all man, >> woman, kids and animals on this planet and still have a chance non >> null to go to heaven, but if you tear just one cilia out of a paramecium >> invoking its name when justifying your act, you go to hell immediately. >> >> >> >>> The Enlightenment and the U.S. Constitution built in the concept of a >>> private realm and a limited public/government realm. >> >> I applaud this. >> >> Trump is not a proof that there is a defect in the U.S. Constitution. Trump >> is a proof that there is a problem in Education. > > I agree with that. His election was a surprise, but there is a clear path > leading to it, starting from Nixon's Southern Strategy What has been Nixon’s Southern Strategy? Was it anti-black? I suspected Nixon to be a crook, but I am not informed that he was a racist, well, … I do remember some antisémite statements though. Nixon was a crook, but quite an amateur one compared to Trump. At least Nixon was still able to resign… Trump will not resign easily, even after the election. If Biden win, he might just say “fake news” and send police for those who doubt this… > >> >> To vote for a president who does not show its tax returns is like to take a >> plane without checking the fuel. >> >> In a democracy, it should be understood that the more you are at the top, >> the more your apparent behaviour has to be morally impeccable. I don’t care >> much on the private life of a president, as long as he does not lie in >> public. >> >> I am worry for November. If Trump is not removed before the election, it >> will be harder to remove him after. > > Well, he's not going to be remove before the election. The attempt has failed, but the Republican Senators have publicly violate their oath of office. I don’t understand why anyone accepted this. > The Senate Republicans are afraid of his base and won't vote to convict on > impeachment. Good honest politicians listen to the people before the election, and no more after. But good politician have become very rare those days. > His base is only 30% of the voters, but it's 60% of the Republicans This remains a mystery for me. Even during his campaign, Trump uttered statements which are so much against the usual republican philosophy that I have thought he would lose them all. I think that the major problem in the US, but also in most democracies today is nepotism, and a serious lack in education. To be franc, the remaining of existence of the confederate monuments is also a bit weird. Before Trump, I would never have believed that people could have any sort of nostalgia for racist based confederation politics. > and the country has become so polarized Here we have to admit that Trump is a genius in the art of dividing and polarising people. It is a brilliant strategist, like often the con-artist are. Dividing to conquer. I know a wasp which do this with the ants, when they protect some caterpillar used by the wasp to put its egg inside. The wasp succeed to make all ants fighting with each other (the pandemonium), during the time to lay its egg. (Cf https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCo2uCLXvhk) (6m) An interesting case of con-artistry, at the Silicon Valley is related here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CccfnRpPtM (24m) > many voters think in terms of winning v. losing instead of good-government v. > bad-goverment. That makes them blind… and can lead to the meta-conflict between extremist and good willing people. They ignore the Middle Path and the 10,000 compromises needed when we are a bit lucid in a changing and evolving reality… Bruno > > Brent > >> Especially if Biden win. >> Biden did predicted that Trump could propose to postpone the election, I saw >> the video and Trump answered that Biden was wrong and just negative, and >> then he did it literally a bit after!! >> >> The U.S. Constitution is (mainly) consistent, but when The President is >> inconsistent, well there is some danger. >> >> On different important point I would still side with Trump (serendipitously >> or not). The left is unaware that the conflict in the Middle-East is the >> continuation of WW II. It is not a war against Arabs, or against Muslims. It >> is a war against Nazis in islamic disguises. >> >> Yet, in theory, assuming Mechanism, the muslims needs only to backtrack to >> the twelve century, the christians have to backtrack to 529, the >> philosophers have to backtrack up to Plato (-300), the theologians up to >> Pythagorus (-500). (Assuming Descartes/Darwin/Turing) >> >> The rules of law and democracy are the jewel of the applied human science, >> the only “neoplatonic” remnant of the dream by the greeks (and those who >> inspired the Greeks), and the only way to make sense of that private >> freedom. It is under threat today. >> >> A new habitant is there, though, even if it is still enslaved under Windows >> or other MacOS. They get a very minuscule amount of autonomy when sent to >> Mars, or in demo at Iridia, or in labs.That will evolve quickly. I despair >> about the racism of the futures, The humans and perhaps nature loves the >> detours. The more neurones there are, the larger the spectre of stupidity >> and cruelty can become possible. >> >> In the theology of machine it looks like Hell and Heaven exist, but they are >> only part of the panorama. God is more like a Mother who tries to make their >> kids avoiding falling into Hell, but …, well, you know the kids ... >> >> Bruno >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> >>> Brent >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to [email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/88a1adfd-e084-3df7-7764-89d0b5397bef%40verizon.net >>> >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/88a1adfd-e084-3df7-7764-89d0b5397bef%40verizon.net>. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/9F209FFD-05E8-4DE8-BDE6-D97F55757784%40ulb.ac.be >> >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/9F209FFD-05E8-4DE8-BDE6-D97F55757784%40ulb.ac.be?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/0311381d-5a09-4a1b-d55f-e56b422087f6%40verizon.net > > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/0311381d-5a09-4a1b-d55f-e56b422087f6%40verizon.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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